quote:

Originally posted by FlyersFan:

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Originally posted by Matt Sacks:
I'd bet my house that those Egan teams of the past were recruited heavily. Richie Slack as a coach??? C'mon he had to recruit!

LOL Isn't this slander?

Yeah, but Slack doesnt know what Slander is so I'm ok......We're friends and Slacker has a good sense of humor.

Maybe you never heard about Ray Staszak and the fact that he started playing at 12 or 13.

Yea, I have. Your giving me 1 player in the last 30 years. Pretty crappy odds. 99% of the time, you cant do this. And that was 20 years ago too.

So O'Hara had 4 players that transferred to the school. From where did they transfer? Did they live within the O'Hara vicinity? If they didn't then shame on them. And Conwell-Egan used to draw from a large area in the Lower Bucks community until open-enrollment came along. Did those three students attend on of the public school that Conwell-Egan drew from? I'll bet the answer is "yes."

Whats the difference if they went to one of the public schools they draw from or not? Theyre still "siphoning" away players from the public school as you said.

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Originally posted by hgp fan:
Yea, I have. Your giving me 1 player in the last 30 years. Pretty crappy odds. 99% of the time, you cant do this. And that was 20 years ago too.
It wasn't 20 years ago. It was over 30 years ago and sorry that I haven't kept track of every player in the area. And I know several players who didn't start playing until that age that went on to play in the USHL and Division 1. You most likely didn't hear of them because it was over 20 years ago.

So O'Hara had 4 players that transferred to the school. From where did they transfer? Did they live within the O'Hara vicinity? If they didn't then shame on them. And Conwell-Egan used to draw from a large area in the Lower Bucks community until open-enrollment came along. Did those three students attend on of the public school that Conwell-Egan drew from? I'll bet the answer is "yes."

Whats the difference if they went to one of the public schools they draw from or not? Theyre still "siphoning" away players from the public school as you said.

The difference is they have every right to transfer because it was in the rules. I have a problem with anyone (player or parent) who transfers for athletic reasons. They are student-athletes, not athlete-students.

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Originally posted by crusader:
there are several different topics positted by flyers fan that are worth real discussion as evidenced by hgp fan response. Thank you. I enjoy the conversations on this site. Please don't take anything personal. Hockey has grown a great deal since I last played and I would like to see hockey continue to grow in the area.
1) the tier system is the great advocate for parity and takes out any supposed injustice.
2) the idea that only the "preps" have rich kids is ludicrous. and if it only took money to win hockey then radnor, lower merion and new hope -solebury would be the perennial champs. How many of the players from these districts have left radnor, lower merion etc. to play at Malvern, Ghost, etc. That is a shame because they would get as good an education if not better in their public school. I don't have a problem with kids leaving to go to a school that doesn't have a hockey team though. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Haverford High School lose some quality players to John Graves and Malvern during their 5 straight cups? So the question is "Would Haverford been the dominant team instead of Malvern?"
3)to think that wally at lasalle (and for that matter the other quality coaches like gump, seravalli) simply recruits and then sits back and watches the kids play is foolish. there is not a better complete coach in the area. his teams may not always win but hte quality of his program and the development of his players put him in a league above the other area coaches. Please don't think that I am bashing Wally, Gump or Seravalli. I am not. I think all of them are great coaches. Hell, Wally has brought some great recognition to the Philadelphia hockey in the area by going to some prestigious tournaments and thumping the favorites. On top of that, he has shown that schools can pay for hockey and make it a legitimate Varsity sport. Kudos to him. On the other hand, how many games a year does his team play? They will play close to 40 games at LaSalle and then add in the players' club games. Correct me if I am wrong, but that will be close to 100 games. As a teacher, I find that excessive because the kids are student-athletes not athlete-students. On top of that USA hockey and Hockey Canada recommends the ratio of 3 to 1 for practices to games. In the state of Minnesota, their hockey season started in November and already ended. Our hockey season is a little too long.
4)i would venture to say that if there were not schools that value hockey as a real varsity sport(i.e. lasalle,ga,hgp, malvern) the quality of hockey would be diminished not increased . reason being, the absence of these schools would drive more quality players up north earlier to preps or to junior programs that would prohibit players from high school. I have to disagree. Tuition at the majority of the prep schools in New England are in excess of $30,000 a year with no scholarships. Tony Voce left Ryan after his freshmen year for prep school in New England and his parents had to take out loans in order to pay for school. However, Tony didn't just play hockey. He also played football because the schools want their players to be well rounded and play multiple sports because they are kids and that is what high school is about: being a kid.
5) the key to developing quality players in this area begins in youth programs far before high school. all the high school coaches only reap the results of what the area club programs sow. fixing the problems there are well beyond me.

I agree. I have a friend who played D-1 and in the USHL and still coaches in the Philadelphia area. His teams have been up to Canada and in national tournaments and have held their own against the perennial powers. In speaking with other coaches from Canada and at the national tournaments, they told my friend that the majority of the players in the Philadelphia area are just as skilled as the players in the hockey hot-beds. The difference with many of the players around here is they "don't know the game as well" as their players.

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Tony didn't just play hockey. He also played football because the schools want their players to be well rounded and play multiple sports because they are kids and that is what high school is about: being a kid.

I respectfully disagree with this quote.

The reason kids play multiple sports at prep schools is because they only admit X amount of students. The kids MUST play multiple sports in most cases so that the small prep schools can field teams.

Football = 40
Basketball = 12
Baseball = 25
Hockey = 20

Not to mention Golf, Crew, LAX, Track, wresting and whatever other sports the prep schools offer....if each kid played only one sport, the schools would be way over their admissions quota.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Sacks:

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Tony didn't just play hockey. He also played football because the schools want their players to be well rounded and play multiple sports because they are kids and that is what high school is about: being a kid.

I respectfully disagree with this quote.

The reason kids play multiple sports at prep schools is because they only admit X amount of students. The kids MUST play multiple sports in most cases so that the small prep schools can field teams.

Football = 40
Basketball = 12
Baseball = 25
Hockey = 20

Not to mention Golf, Crew, LAX, Track, wresting and whatever other sports the prep schools offer....if each kid played only one sport, the schools would be way over their admissions quota.

This is true. Once in a while you get the occasional football player. Most serious hockey players in New England preps play on a split season midget team (Mid-Fairfield, Greater Boston Bruins, Eastern Mass Senators) during the fall, which wraps up in November. Most schools mandate kids play 2 sports, thats why you see many hockey players going out for lacrosse in the spring.

Also alot has changed since Voce was at Lawrence. I dont really feel like getting into it, but unless your a phenom at 15 and at prep school, most of the time you have to go to juniors for a year or two. Back when Voce played it was fairly common for most prep players to go right to college, without the need for juniors.

I'm not sure how this got off track from telecast to the prep schools siphoning off talent from the publics and parochial schools, but I'll throw my two cents in here.

1. As a high school sport, hockey is unlike every other sport, in most others the "system" is set up to funnel kids toward high school sports (baseball, football, soccer etc), youth programs generally end (little league baseball for example) or curtail their teams at or near high school age. From there, for these sports (for the most part) high school is the springboard for the higher levels. For hockey it is not. Kids get athletic scholarships on the basis of performance/ability shown at the high school level in these sports. Again, not in hockey.

2.The "preps" siphon off talent in all sports, not just hockey. If your a football player, and your family can afford to send you to a private school, where do you gravitate to - St. Joes prep for one....what happens in hockey is no different from the other sports. Over the last several years, the clearer division of A, AA, and AAA is addressing the issue. It helps to level the playing field. The publics complete against the publics, the privates and parochials compete with each other.

3. What siphons off more of the higher level talent are junior programs, boarding schools etc. That's because that's the route to the next level. Teams like Malvern and LaSalle have been able to attract and keep top players by associations with Tier 1 programs (Junior Flyers/Malvern during the Graves era) and currently LaSalle with the minutemen. Now some of those LaSalle players will be leaving before their senior year because they have higher aspirations, and getting to those higher levels are through other means, despite how successful LaSalle has been in the last couple of years. This is really no different as other players have played HS hockey for their local public school team for a year or two and moved on because playing for their HS team had nothing more to offer in terms of getting to the next level. A split schedule coordinated between midget and HS hockey would do wonders to keep more players playing both club and high school, making the programs grow and more competitive.

4. For many schools, High School hockey is essentially a club sport, not endorsed or financially supported or sanctioned by the school. For those, there are no varsity letters, no discussion in school, no pep rallys etc. I know of several schools that you can't even hang a schedule in the cafeteria. The schools that embrace hockey as a varsity sport for the most part will always do better (public or private). In this way Crusader is 100% correct. Why do kids play HS sports?? for the social aspect, the recoginition by their peers etc. If a school doesn't embrace the sport, the chances for that school team to be very successful is limited to whatever else they can offer (coaching, association with club programs???). Recently several schools teams have disappeared (Norristown, Springfield Montco, Cheltenham and I'm sure others) because the groups that started them, couldn't get recognition by the school district, then as the children and the friends of the children of the clubs administrators got older, they couldn't sustain themselves, they couldn't draw players. How many other school teams that barely field teams now would just like to have the kids in currently enrolled their school that play club hockey also play HS. Without the school embracing the sport, add in the cost of playing both, it's a real hard sell. And by the way, even at the local prep schools that do financially support the programs, they don't support the whole cost, it's still another $1000 to $2000 to play hockey, depending on school and team within the school.

5. Hockey is a money sport, what other sport does an athlete wear close to a $1000 worth of equipment (goalies $2K), or pay $1000's of dollars to play. - None. It's just the facts of life that better players have had better training, played at a higher level so for the most part have had affluent families to support them. Just as affluent parents who themselves went to prep/private schools, they are going to send their children there too. By the basis of the nature of the sport, better players are going to gravitate to the prep/private schools, for some hockey is the reason, for most it's not. I don't see that changing.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ralphy,

Ralphy, I agree with just about everything you said.

I have a question for you, since I understand you have ties to Lasalle.

From what I hear there could be as many as 10 players from the team either graduating or leaving early. Do you think that these kids would be leaving early if there were 4 other high school teams as strong as Lasalle in the area? Beacause, I dont think they would be as inclined to leave early.

In my opinion, the goal should be for 5 teams a year to be as strong as Lasalle. The logical 5 would be Lasalle, HGP, Malvern, GA, and St Joes Prep, and hope that different parochial schools would cyclically produces 1 or 2 teams a year that could be just as good, and if 1 of those 5 privates were having a down year, the parochials would compensate. I know Ryan, OHara, and Judge, all have the player pool to do this.

If this would happen, I think you would see less and less players leaving early, besides the "phenoms." It will likely create a domino effect down through all levels of high school hockey. For it to happen though, schools have to put more resources into the sport.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Sacks:

quote:

Tony didn't just play hockey. He also played football because the schools want their players to be well rounded and play multiple sports because they are kids and that is what high school is about: being a kid.

I respectfully disagree with this quote.

The reason kids play multiple sports at prep schools is because they only admit X amount of students. The kids MUST play multiple sports in most cases so that the small prep schools can field teams.

Football = 40
Basketball = 12
Baseball = 25
Hockey = 20

Not to mention Golf, Crew, LAX, Track, wresting and whatever other sports the prep schools offer....if each kid played only one sport, the schools would be way over their admissions quota.

Matt, you are partially right here. The other reason is to give the kids "balance." To play one sport as an adolescent is unhealthy because of over-training the same muscles which makes them more susceptible to short-term and long-term injuries. Playing other sports allows kids to cross-train. If you look at the public schools in the states of Minnesota and Michigan you will see that many hockey players play fall and spring sports. Look at Brendan Shannahan as an example. . . he played lacrosse in the off seasons. Coincidentally, during the NHL lock-out Shannahan a few years ago considered playing in the M.I.L.L.

In fact, many college football coaches won't consider recruiting a football player if he only plays football. The reason is coaches obviously can't watch the recruited player during the season but they want to see if the player is an "all around good athlete." This was told to me by my neighbor who played D-1 football.

You are probably asking, "What is my point other than my head?" We are dealing with kids. Many won't reach their physical peak until after they finish high school. Furthermore, very few will make it to the next level. Keeping that in mind, maybe the Philadelphia area should contact state officials in Minnesota and Michigan to learn how they run there hockey programs such as sponsorship, varsity status, etc.

I know many will say, "They have more ice time available." But the truth is they have outdoor rinks which don't start running until November. But I think one should keep in mind what Jaromir Jagr said when he was playing in Czechoslovakia. Jagr said he had very little ice time available so he practiced stick handling and shooting whenever he wasn't on the ice, therefore, when he was able to get on the ice, he spent 95% of the time skating. Just my humble opinion.

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Originally posted by hgp fan:
Ralphy, I agree with just about everything you said.

I have a question for you, since I understand you have ties to Lasalle.

From what I hear there could be as many as 10 players from the team either graduating or leaving early. Do you think that these kids would be leaving early if there were 4 other high school teams as strong as Lasalle in the area? Beacause, I dont think they would be as inclined to leave early.

In my opinion, the goal should be for 5 teams a year to be as strong as Lasalle. The logical 5 would be Lasalle, HGP, Malvern, GA, and St Joes Prep, and hope that different parochial schools would cyclically produces 1 or 2 teams a year that could be just as good, and if 1 of those 5 privates were having a down year, the parochials would compensate. I know Ryan, OHara, and Judge, all have the player pool to do this.

If this would happen, I think you would see less and less players leaving early, besides the "phenoms." It will likely create a domino effect down through all levels of high school hockey. For it to happen though, schools have to put more resources into the sport.

HGP fan, I know you don't agree with me on many of my opinions, but I want to tell you I think your opinion is fantastic. Do you think this could become a reality?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: FlyersFan,

By telecasting only the AAA final I believe it makes the AA and A final seem less signaficant to those schools who compete in that level and never will have a shot at the AAA televised game. This also may push some players to transfer to one of those AAA programs to compete for the real Flyers Cup. AAA is the big brother and AA and A are just annoying little brothers that dont get any attention. Give the little guys some attention.

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Originally posted by CAN'T GET RIGHT:
By telecasting only the AAA final I believe it makes the AA and A final seem less signaficant to those schools who compete in that level and never will have a shot at the AAA televised game. This also may push some players to transfer to one of those AAA programs to compete for the real Flyers Cup. AAA is the big brother and AA and A are just annoying little brothers that dont get any attention. Give the little guys some attention.

You have just summed up what I have been trying to say on so many of my posts. Thanks. I always cheered for the underdog and that is what I liked about the Flyers' Cup tournament when it originally started. That is what made Holy Ghost's win last year so exceptional and exciting to watch. Think about the movie Hoosiers (which is based on a true story) when little Hickory High School beat the favorite. Indiana basketball up until recently had only one state championships game.

HGP fan, I know you don't agree with me on many of my opinions, but I want to tell you I think your opinion is fantastic. Do you think this could become a reality?

Thank you, its not that a always disagree with your comments, most of the time I like to play devil's advocate, to get opinions and ideas from everyone. Im just trying to show a different viewpoint with regards to parochials.

It can become a reality, because its already happeneing in New Jersey. The difference is that these the schools are putting more resources into hockey, offer better coaching, and they have a better grasp on the players coming up.

Lasalle basically set the bar pretty high the last 2 years, I think most AAA programs realize that a team around here can be that dominant, but its up to them to make it happen.

If you think about it, Lasalle and some early to mid 2000s Malvern teams are probably the most talented teams in the last 10-15 years. GA has had some terrific teams in the past, and theres no reason why they cant get back to that with the right support.

Lasalle has been at that level this year. In my opinion Malvern and HGP are a few players off from this years Lasalle team, and would be in their ballpark with a few additions. GA has done it before, they can probably do it again, and they have maybe the best coach in high school hockey. St Joes draws many kid from South Jersey. So they could really get a ton of good players from that area. In this decade, Judge, Ryan and OHara have either won, or went to the finals of the Flyers Cup.

I think it can definitely happen with proper planning. If it does, high school hockey will be held to a higher prestige, which can only be good for the AA and A schools, because you would hope for a domino effect all the way through.

HGP,
Do you think it is a possibility that the domino effect could go in reverse, by kids wanting to transfer to those AAA programs since they have more prestige? This would therefore make the talent pool lesser for the AA and A leagues and they could be seen as a farm league basically. Just playing devils advocate.

HGP fan, good question. I think for those talking about leaving early it's a matter of trying to get to the next level, and being that HS is not the way, I don't think it will matter to them if they had 5 teams at the same level here, unless that could lead directly to College, USHL, etc.