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whatthepuck --- The "billeting issue again" because Pancake and sw14 brought it up!! As you know, I said weeks ago that the concensus here was that it was a closed subject with regard to the season just ending and that it would be dealt with (or not) prior to next season. So, again, I didn't bring it up. Two other contributors did. Naturally, having views on the subject, I responded. I'm going to answer your question about PV, though I'm not sure that I should. Doing so gives the mistaken impression that ONLY PV had billeted players this season when the fact of the matter is that a number of other area schools did as well. To answer your question also ignors the many cases of ACTUALLY improper recruiting that routinely take place in the ranks of the AAA schools by singling out PV when, in fact, PV commited NO VIOLATION. The fact of the matter is that PV is graduating 15 seniors from the varsity hockey team in June, Rob Sutherland being one of them, along with other well-known names like DeLuca, Fiorillo, Nicholson, Zeigler, and, I think, Christie, Shaw, and others. I would expect that next season will be one of some re-building. There are no plans to go out and "find" a goaltender, any more than there are plans to go out and "find" 3 or 4 new forwards and a couple of new defensemen. I'm sure that the available players will coalesce into a capable, if not formidable, team. As far as having an agenda...my son's graduating and moving on to a promising future as an idiot, following, some might say, in his proud father's footsteps. This message has been edited. Last edited by: hhfan, |
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Carl does ask the fundemental question: Is the primary consideration..."elite" players to the next level? The obvious (to me) answer is "No". As the same time, the needs of those players cannot be ignored or, even worse, damaged by overly broad rules interpretations which might not have been originally contemplated by the rule-makers themselves. |
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hhfan,
Please elaborate on "the many cases of ACTUALLY improper recruiting that rountinely take place in the ranks of the AAA schools", please provide examples. |
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ralphy ---
I'm not going to name names. Recruiting "abnormalities" at AAA schools have been discussed recently in various topic lines throughout this forum. There is a consensus among the observers who commented that such "abnormalities" are not at all uncommon. I also know it for a fact, as I have been witness to it. You are on this forum a lot and are, I presume, an astute observer of the area hockey scene. So you should not need me to give examples...you likely know of some on your own. |
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hhfan,
I find it difficult to understand your hard stance on AAA recruiting, when billeting IS being done in a similar manner, and yet there are yet no repercussions for it. It presently stands as legal recruiting. Interestingly, the very issue of recruiting which you are so concerned with is addressed under PIAA rules (correct me if I'm wrong on this Carl), that is why you don't see St. Joe's or Malvern getting the chance to play for state titles. IF, all of the PIAA rules were to be brought in to play for next season, there would be quite a few teams that would fall outside the compliance of them. I feel that the PIAA rules should be used as a template for player eligibility and league structure in a "first step" phase in of PIAA rules. The next step may bring in other aspects of PIAA rules such as playoff formats, team sanctioning and other areas. As far as playing rules as the game is concerned, you could either use Federation or USA Hockey, whichever suits our needs best. All of this aside, without the adoption of PIAA rules, the chance that school districts will sanction hockey as a varsity sport is slim. And like it or not, if we want the sport to go varsity, it will require us to come under the governance of the PIAA. I know that the initial "bitter pill" of PIAA rules and subsequent governance might be unpalatable at first, but I feel that the potential long term reward will be that hockey will grow and become stronger as a result. |
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whatthepuck --- If I gave the impression of a "hard stance" on AAA recruiting, it was not intentional. I accept it as fundementally unpreventable. As I said on this subject in an earlier topic line, if a rule is realistically uninforcable, the rule should either be eliminated or altered in such a way as to become enforcable. Either one. With respect to AAA or open-enrollment schools, it is my experience that a very significant portion of the student body is often there for the sole purpose of an athletic opportunity, with academic considerations coming in a distant second. Administrators and some parents will stoutly deny this, but I know from personal experience that it is true. Coaches will sheepishly admit that I'm right. So, I don't think recruiting by those types of schools can realistically be stopped. Therefore, in my opinion, it should probably be allowed and regulated in a way that has enforcement teeth. I would also not be unhappy to see billeting accepted and similarly regulated. I would certainly rather see that than see billeted players singled out for exclusion from full and equal participation in the programs of the area high school they attend. My earlier example of a kid who is offered a chance to perform for the season with the Philadelphia Junior Symphony Orchestra, moves from Maryland to do that and enrolls in an area high school, and would not be precluded from participating in marching band competitions, is on point, I think, though perhaps unlikely, I'll admit. Yet, the principle remains. Why should we deny full high school participation to kids who move to the area to enhance a skill in a totally unrelated environment? Yes, there's room for abuse. I think we should find a way to limit or eliminate the opportunity for abuse rather than deny those students full participation. Sure, recruiting is addressed in the PIAA rules. It's addressed all over the country. But open-enrollment schools continue to do it as a fairly common practice in all sports, both girls and boys. What I'm not sure about in this entire conversation is this fundemental question: What of any significance is to be gained by having "school districts (PIAA added) sanction hockey as a varsity sport."? In practical terms, it seems to me that it is a de facto varsity sport now. Teams wear the school colors, use the school name, receive varsity letters, and costs are kept under control in a fashion which would be inconceivable in the public sector. So, why are we lunging(sic) towards PIAA sanction when there seems to be so little to gain? |
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hhfan,
You threw out a pretty harsh statement, therefore I'm just asking you to elaborate and back it up. My son goes to an "AAA" school. I am aware of one instance not involving my son's school where a young man playing in the same club program as my son was approached by a coach and was offered to play for the JF for free if he enrolled in a certain school. Even with that, there was no offer of tuition assistance or help getting in academically, they couldn't afford the tuition and they declined. So I can only imagine similar offers were made to others that may have accepted, that was several years ago, and that coach is no longer at that school. In terms of my son, he was invited to a summer camp run by his current school's coach as a seventh grader (we paid for it, it wasn't free), the camp was open to anyone, and at the school's open house (before we applied), the head coach (who works at the school) was at the open house, recognized my wife's last name and remembered my son, and escorted my wife on the tour through the school (my son and I were on a hockey trip with his team that weekend). Other than that, there was no direct contact by the school or coach as related to hockey. Is that "actually improper" recruiting???? I would say not. Were others approached in a different way, could be, but I'm not aware. We pay full tuition, plus another $1000 to play hockey, fact of the matter is, I know of only one hockey player (there may be others, but I'm not aware of any) in his school that has an academic scholarship of $4000/year, his parents are doctors, he is a very smart young man who takes several AP courses that works his butt off to keep his GPA at the level required to keep his scholarship. My son played with several of the boys that play for his school's top team (and other AAA schools) since he was a mite (as I'm sure your son has too). We know the parents, known many of them for 10 years, socialize with them, and we are not aware of any of the "ACTUALLY improper recruiting" acts that you speak of. Were there any - with the relationship we have with some of those parents, I think I would have at least heard rumors. I've heard none. What do you consider improper recruiting???? How much of what is heard is heresay - bragging by parents or kids about their situation???? On other items on this forum I've seen as many posts shoot down the theories as have noted them. My brother is a Varsity head coach of a public school, they buy icetime and run camps during the summer too, and invite kids to the camp to try and get them interested in their program. (Isn't that "recruiting" too????) He's called families in an effort in getting boys to play for the school team, sometime successful, sometimes not. A lot of schools do this. Obviously they can only take the players that live in the school district (for varsity). They'd just love to have the kids that already go to the school that play club hockey play HS too, but the school does not endorse the sport, there are no varsity letters, etc. Sometimes it comes down to money, time etc, it's a hard sell. They are struggling to keep the program afloat and may not have enough players to play varsity next year. So what's the difference?? My brother is an unpaid coach (his choice to help keep costs down for the program, his predecessor was paid), not an employee of the school, so not able to escort potential players on a tour of the school, but does recruit along with the board members of the program. They have to to survive. It's a public school, so the team is an AA team instead of AAA. Same playing field. Doesn't PV do this too??? Is PV's team run by the school or by an independent board an organization???? (I don't know) In terms of the argument of billeting that you are so staunchly defending. Agreed, at this point it's legal. However I agree with others that a team with billeted players should play AAA. You have an advantage over other public schools by being able to "recruit/recieve" (however you wish to call it) a billeted player in your program. This message has been edited. Last edited by: ralphy, |
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I don't get this argument of improper recruiting by AAA schools... isn't that why they have their own division??? Isn't the reason they're all at AAA is because they can recruit? In fact is there a rule in place that says they can't recruit?
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Pondhockey11,
That has been my point all along (though perhaps not as eloquently stated). The parochial schools are all put in the AAA division simply because they CAN recruit, not that they DO recruit. I know first hand that Shanahan, for example, did not (though TopCat would have to confirm that for this year). I agree with Ralphy in that, if you want to take on billeted players, you take on the yoke of AAA play. |
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Ralphy --- I think a public school, as in your brother's situation, can and should do anything it can to encourage participation in all school programs, including sports, among the students in the district. Period. However, if the rule is that students who transfer from school to school "for athletic reasons" are ineligable to play for a period of time, wouldn't that apply equally to AAA schools? Tell me if I'm wrong. I know one AAA school (not in greater Philadelphia, but in Pa.) at which the hockey coach also became the Director of Admissions for the school while retaining his hockey portfolio. He was estatic(sic) in that this gave him additional "cover" to build the hockey program. If I'm wrong about the transfer rule applying to AAA schools, please tell me and I'll volunteer to wear an "I'm Stupid!" sign! Absolutely, PV, and I would think every other public school, does what your brother and his group do. They do, and should "recruit" as much involvement in school programs as they can get from the district students. PV is run by an independent board. Our only difference is that I believe that a "district student" is defined as any student living in the district, including those who live there in order to pursue an interest with an organization that has no relation to the district and isn't in the district. I believe that's how the rule was designed. You disagree, if not with the principle, as least as it applies to hockey. I understand that. My solution is to allow those students the same access to school programs all other district students have, but curb abuses which violate that principle. Your view is to simply disallow them under all circumstances, which is, to me, throwing out the baby with the bathwater. You also have the view that only "certain" schools have the opportunity to get billeted players. Junior programs are begging families to billet players, so opportunities to get billeted players abound. Our other point of disagreement is that you equate a "A" school with one billeted player to a "AAA" school who can and does consistently draw from a county-wide or even wider pool of students and student/athletes, pulling them out of multiple, even dozens, of districts to build a successful program over the long term. In my experience, there's no reasonable comparison between the two. This message has been edited. Last edited by: hhfan, |
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Moderator |
Schools under the PIAA umbrella are not allowed to recruit, regardless of what level they play at, public or private. And transfers for Athletic reasons are not permitted either.
Inter-Ac's (Malvern, GA, Penn Charter, etc) have not been a part of the PIAA in the past, therefore the same rules haven't applied for them. |
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Matt ---
That's what I thought. Thank you for the clarification. |
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hhfan,
My basic question was to elaborate on your blanket statement about improper recruiting by AAA schools. I assume by this you meant locally, but you're only reference is another school in PA outside of the area. The transfer issue, I believe locally only 1 AAA hockey team is currently a PIAA school (HGP). So the rule currently doesn't apply to the others in all sports as Matt said. The Catholic league schools have restrictions on athletic transfers, but hockey is not an Archdiocesan sport, so again, does it apply??? It's not against the rules (same as billeting). Next year, the Catholic league schools (including LaSalle and St Joes Prep) are going PIAA. So they will have to comply in sports under the PIAA umbrella. Bigger question, does this rule apply to hockey since hockey is not a PIAA sport??? Isn't that up to the individual leagues at this point, same as billeting is??? Under the definition of "district student" as any student living in the district as you say could also be a student that lives in the district that goes to a private school that doesn't have athletics, doesn't have a hockey team, or a player that didn't make his school's hockey team, or even a home schooled student, does that mean they can play for PV in hockey or any other sport??? I don't think so. And by the way, my view is not to disallow a billeted student/athlete, but if you are fortunate enough to be able to have such a player under such a circumstance (billeting for the specific sport in question), you shouldn't be able to compete against the other public schools that draw from the students with full time homes within the district. That's what I said. Someone mentioned Shanahan, I'll note another school Archbishop Wood, are flyers cup ineligible because they asked to move down because they can't compete against the LaSalle's and HGP's of the hockey world. However Bishop McDevitt, Pius X, and Lansdale Catholic I believe are Flyers cup eligible, as I believe is the Haverford school (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this). All of these schools can draw from a large area, potentially "recruit" but the rules are different for some (maybe someone can explain that - and if I'm wrong - please correct me). Maybe similarly a school with billeted players could play "A" or "AA" then be ineligible for Flyers cup like Archbishop Wood and Shanahan are. Isn't that the same concept??? I don't know the answer. I believe that using a billeted junior hockey player on a High School hockey team in a public school situation is really adverse to the spirit of HS athletics. PV had two billeted players, a goalie who turned out to be the best or one of the best in ICSHL, and a player who was one of the top scorers on the team. I have nothing against them. Just level the playing field by playing with the open enrollment schools. this has been fun!!! Peace brother! This message has been edited. Last edited by: ralphy, |
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Landsdale Catholic is ineligible because they are at A instead of AA.
Home schooled students can play for the team of the public school in the district where they reside. |
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Moderator |
Private schools were classified by size as well. The cutoff numbers just differ from the public schools. The smallest of the private schools ARE classified at 'A' and CAN compete in the Flyers Cup at that level. Small schools like Germantown Academy choose to "play up" at AAA, and I commend them for that. |
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Your Homepage Name cgi.breakawaymonthly.com Forums Breakaway! Message Boards High School Hockey Why PIAA Affiliation?
cgi.breakawaymonthly.com Forums Breakaway! Message Boards High School Hockey Why PIAA Affiliation?