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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sm14:
quote:
Originally posted by Pa Hockey:
sm14

Their is not much difference in the playing rules with USA HOckey, East and West. The difference comes with the number of games played.


Would we be using a four-man system in the states?

Would we all have ice cuts after two periods? Or not?

I think the solution is to stay USA Hockey registered and use the NFHS rules. It's a win-win. We use the rules that work well for us and we get the insurance benefit.


TO THE GROUP ---
What's wrong with sm14's suggestion of staying USA Hockey registered and using NFHS rules? What are the positives? What are the negatives?
 
Posts: 257 | Registered: 07 February 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sm14:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancake:
quote:
e

Be careful of what you ask for with the PIAA.

1)If PIAA managed the sport there would be three classifications AAA,AA,A based upon High School Boys attendance. East would be playing Latrobe HS at AA this weekend as the schools are similar in size.

2)There would be no more billeting as PV did with out of state players unless they are foreign exchange students.

3)All classifications would have Academies and Parochial schools that can recruit up and including eighth grade. Large PA East schools would be playing in the same AAA class.

Thoughts??????


The PIAA takes all schools statewide participating in a particular sport. In this case ice hockey. They then divide that group into categories of equal numbers of teams. If there are 225 teams then AAA would have the largest 75, AA the next largest 75 and A the smallest 75. This number is established every two years using male enrollment for male sports. It's concievable that two schools who are 10 males apart could wind up in different classifications. It would eliminate some schools who aren't PIAA like Episcopal, GA, etc.

I'm fine with the no billeting rule. In fact we should adopt it now.


sm14 ---
By the "no billeting rule", you no doubt mean the transfer and eligibility rules. I'm going to give a ridiculous, but plausible, example of the same principles and see if you still feel as you say you do. Under the transfer and eligibility rules, a kid who moves from Maryland to the area to play for, say, the Jr. Flyers would be prohibited from playing on the hockey team at whatever area high school he attends, as many wish to interpret those rules (transferring for "athletic" reasons).
Another student from Maryland has an opportunity to perform with the Center City Dance Theatre in Philadelphia for the season, moves to the area, and attends an area high school. That student would be welcomed into the area school's dramatic arts programs with open arms.
Neither student transferred to a PARTICULAR school for reasons that relate to THAT school, athletic or artistic. The principle I can't get past is that one student, the artist, would be entitled to fully participate in all of his new school's activities and programs while the other student, the athlete, would not be able to fully participate with the rest of his classmates. To me, there's a fundemental fairness issue...even an equal opportunity issue.
In short, I don't believe the transfer and eligibility rules were intended to address billeting. I believe they were intended to limit local recruiting of athletes from one school district by another near-by district in order to strengthen the recruiting school's team. Not kid's who move to the area FOR ATHLETIC REASONS THAT DO NOT RELATE TO THE SCHOOL OR FOR ANY OTHER REASON THAT DOES NOT RELATE TO THE SCHOOL.
Does this in any way influence your opinion? (any answer's OK!)
If you are more comfortable with a comparison with something more "competitive", let's say it's the Philadelphia Junior Philharmonic Orchestra and high school marching band (marching bands compete).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: hhfan,
 
Posts: 257 | Registered: 07 February 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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BTW, all the people who favor Midgets over Juniors, if split season comes you will also reduce the exposure the best Midget Major AAA team gives it players. That split season will take away some of the top tournaments/showcases the Midget AAA team attends during high school season.
 
Posts: 197 | Registered: 04 January 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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hhfan,

Why the billeting issue again? This is going to be addressed in the upcoming league meetings. I've said this before, billeting should be addressed in one of two ways. No billets permitted to play HS hockey OR those schools willing to take the chance that a billet will fall from heaven into their laps must play AAA. Why you say, should a single A team like say Perk Valley be penalized for having a billeted player on their team? Because the system CAN, WAS and IS being manipulated by persons within certain school districts. That is why.

HHfan - how is PV on goaltending for next season? To my knowledge you have 1 JVB goalie returning (he could have played JVA this year and gotten better prepared for next year, had the PV organization not played the kid from Phoenixville there - you guys got a backwater decision from the league, and you guys abused that decision too - you had permission to play the kid from Phoenixville to play JV (no designation as to which and you placed him in above the legit goalie in your system). The other is a very promising 8th grader, who will be a Freshman next year. Good Luck with that.
Your agenda seems to be clear here. PV intends to go out and billet another goalie for next season, cause the cupboard is bare. This goalie will just happen to randomly find his way into the caring home of a PV family, and he might just play trombone in the marching band on his off days between playing for the Minutement and the HS. Wink

When you go stumping for votes on these forums, be aware that everyone on here should know the entire story, not just from the PV perspective.

BTW, our organization has been guilty of manipulating the billet situation as well, and we believe that it is in fact unsportsmanlike to do it, and would like to do away with it.
 
Posts: 72 | Registered: 23 February 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of Pa Hockey
Posted Hide Post
AT the end of the day, none of this will happen until someone deals with the PIHL.....Good Luck !
 
Posts: 137 | Registered: 19 February 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Posted Hide Post
In the Inquirer today

Lacrosse to go PIAA
 
Posts: 123 | Registered: 25 September 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Posted Hide Post
Back to the PIAA, interesting article on the front page of the Inquirer today regarding boys lacrosse and the PIAA:

Inquirer Boys lacrosse story

...Zambonihugger beat me to it while I was cleaning up my typos...

Also, understand we can't join the NFHS directly. If we adopt their rule book (which isn't that different; tag-up offsides was one of its most attractive differences), we give up the USA Hockey insurance, officiating, coaches Quals, etc., with nothing to replace it. That means each school would have to agree to bring ice hockey under its insurance umbrella or the clubs would have to go purchase their own insurance. Have fun with that.
 
Posts: 169 | Registered: 13 September 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of Pa Hockey
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So what your saying is you get rid of a supplemental catestophic insurance policy, coaches would have to be hired by the Athletic Director and cannot be chased by Parent boards because they are not be given ice time by the coach or get cut and on ice officials would be accountable to the schools and teams..........geez that sounds pretty good to me.

Plus the schools have their own insurance under NHFS to cover ALL sports and players and its probably cheaper than USA Hockey's policy.
 
Posts: 137 | Registered: 19 February 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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turn your post around...

... would coaches be hired by the Athletic Director?

... would schools include the hockey team under their own insurance?

Those things are only guaranteed to happen if ice hockey is officially sanctioned--meaning under PIAA governance. What happens to those programs whose schools don't step up to the responsibility? Don't jump out of the lifeboat until you are sure there's a dry place to land.

And I've got news--parents in other sports are at least as crazy as hockey parents. We just don't leave the cozy confines of the rink enough to see it

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CarlWood,
 
Posts: 169 | Registered: 13 September 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of Pa Hockey
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As I said in my previous post it will never happen in Pennsylvania because of alot of reasons plus the ones you mention. In addition, I used New York as an example of a State that has both Fed [NHFS] and USA Hockey Teams. New York prohibits its FED teams from playing an USA Hockey CLub Teams and also does not particpate in the Chicago Showcase, run b USA Hockey AHAI in Illinois.

The best thing for hockey MAY BE to go Fed, but as we have learned people are more interested in doing things for their own [ST] personal benefit than the [LT] betterment of the sport. It's called vision and with the visionaries now in charge of this sport, it will NOT happen !
 
Posts: 137 | Registered: 19 February 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:

And I've got news--parents in other sports are at least as crazy as hockey parents. We just don't leave the cozy confines of the rink enough to see it


The environemtn isn't ideal with hockey parents either, lets take both sides of the teams and jam them in a building side by side. Versus other sports were they are spread across fields and such, and you still see stuff in the news I
m sure Youtube is loaded with this stuff. I think hockey makes the list because it already has the Bullies tag attached to it by most outside of hockey.

I once asked a friend to come watch my sons team play, she said no way she is against violence and fighting. This was at peewees on a very disciplined and skilled team..lol
 
Posts: 197 | Registered: 04 January 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Plus the schools have their own insurance under NHFS to cover ALL sports and players and its probably cheaper than USA Hockey's policy.


Has anyone actually scouted out what it would cost to carry such supplemental insurance like US Hockey for a big PA Statewide policy, especially if # of games was limited, etc.

Remember it's supplemental and Usa Hockey is over $35 per play now isn't it? I remember last time when i registered my son for US Hockey there was a US Hockey fee and a Atlantic District fee. I guess I'm paying the salaries of Atlantic District politics with that fee.
 
Posts: 197 | Registered: 04 January 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Zambonihugger:
In the Inquirer today

Lacrosse to go PIAA


Sounded like Malvern was upset because they would be excluded from Champsionship, and East was ok with the change because they are still included in Championship and won't have to face Malvern to win it.

Luckily for both teams with Lacrosse like baseball, basketball and football there is a direct path to D1 College sports unlike hockey.
 
Posts: 197 | Registered: 04 January 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by trimback:
Luckily for both teams with Lacrosse like baseball, basketball and football there is a direct path to D1 College sports unlike hockey.


There may be a direct path, but its not a smooth and rewarding one. See this front-page NY Times article from a few weeks back.

NY Times article

I've saved copies of the 3-part series for discussion when the on-line (free) archive goes away.

But the point to come back to: Is (True or False) the primary consideration in organizing your HS sport advancing the "elite" (self-selected or otherwise) players to the next level? A lot of the tangents on this thread go back to this fundamental question.
 
Posts: 169 | Registered: 13 September 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by hhfan:
quote:
Originally posted by sm14:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancake:
quote:
e

Be careful of what you ask for with the PIAA.

1)If PIAA managed the sport there would be three classifications AAA,AA,A based upon High School Boys attendance. East would be playing Latrobe HS at AA this weekend as the schools are similar in size.

2)There would be no more billeting as PV did with out of state players unless they are foreign exchange students.

3)All classifications would have Academies and Parochial schools that can recruit up and including eighth grade. Large PA East schools would be playing in the same AAA class.

Thoughts??????


The PIAA takes all schools statewide participating in a particular sport. In this case ice hockey. They then divide that group into categories of equal numbers of teams. If there are 225 teams then AAA would have the largest 75, AA the next largest 75 and A the smallest 75. This number is established every two years using male enrollment for male sports. It's concievable that two schools who are 10 males apart could wind up in different classifications. It would eliminate some schools who aren't PIAA like Episcopal, GA, etc.

I'm fine with the no billeting rule. In fact we should adopt it now.


sm14 ---
By the "no billeting rule", you no doubt mean the transfer and eligibility rules. I'm going to give a ridiculous, but plausible, example of the same principles and see if you still feel as you say you do. Under the transfer and eligibility rules, a kid who moves from Maryland to the area to play for, say, the Jr. Flyers would be prohibited from playing on the hockey team at whatever area high school he attends, as many wish to interpret those rules (transferring for "athletic" reasons).
Another student from Maryland has an opportunity to perform with the Center City Dance Theatre in Philadelphia for the season, moves to the area, and attends an area high school. That student would be welcomed into the area school's dramatic arts programs with open arms.
Neither student transferred to a PARTICULAR school for reasons that relate to THAT school, athletic or artistic. The principle I can't get past is that one student, the artist, would be entitled to fully participate in all of his new school's activities and programs while the other student, the athlete, would not be able to fully participate with the rest of his classmates. To me, there's a fundemental fairness issue...even an equal opportunity issue.
In short, I don't believe the transfer and eligibility rules were intended to address billeting. I believe they were intended to limit local recruiting of athletes from one school district by another near-by district in order to strengthen the recruiting school's team. Not kid's who move to the area FOR ATHLETIC REASONS THAT DO NOT RELATE TO THE SCHOOL OR FOR ANY OTHER REASON THAT DOES NOT RELATE TO THE SCHOOL.
Does this in any way influence your opinion? (any answer's OK!)
If you are more comfortable with a comparison with something more "competitive", let's say it's the Philadelphia Junior Philharmonic Orchestra and high school marching band (marching bands compete).


I agree that the rules were meant to prevent recruiting. I also know billeting goes on in other sports. But there it isn't a crossover situation. There isn't a kid coming to play "club" football who then leads the HS league in rushing. It's different in hockey because of the impact of club hockey. There's also precedent everywhere for excluding billeted hockey players from playing HS.

Case 1: Student came for orchestra and plays hockey. Two different scenarios. Like a hockey player also playing lacrosse. Of course would that student have the time to play hockey given the demands of playing in an orchestra?

Case#2: Does on outstanding coronet/saxaphone/drummer make the same impact one hockey player can on a competition?
 
Posts: 85 | Registered: 26 September 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Your Homepage Name    cgi.breakawaymonthly.com    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Breakaway! Message Boards  Hop To Forums  High School Hockey    Why PIAA Affiliation?