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Let's look at HS hockey as a whole:
How many area teams are sanctioned/supported by the school they represent, I would guess probably in the area of 25%. Many of remaining 75% of the "club" teams have petitioned their school districts to become full time sports and have been turned down, I would suspect the biggest reason for most is cost. How many good club hockey players live in districts where they could be good or impact players on their local high school team, go to the school, but never even try out? Some of it could be as simple as a money issue, HS hockey costs are very close to Tier II hockey costs. Or is it because the school doesn't recognize the sport and it takes away the social/peer status aspect that athlete's get from playing other HS sports that are recognized??? The competition for players isn't only against private schools, but to Junior programs, AAA club programs and Tier II club programs. Other HS sports don't have that outside competition on a large scale. The most competitive hockey is played at the Junior level - not high school, many junior teams don't allow their players to play high school. What's the percentage of Varsity HS players that have never played club and have only been developed through school programs??? Very small. Use Baseball for example, Most baseball players learned their sport in little league - but that ends at 12 years old. The natural progression of the better baseball players is to play High School. Hockey is not structured that way. College Scholarships for athletes for most sports come from their participation at the HS level, not Hockey. So what is the best for the long term viability of HS Hockey?? (Carl, I appreciated your input here.) There are club teams that are on life support and folding (Springfield Montco a good example - the program is 6/7 years old, turned down by the school district as a Varsity sport several years ago, has only 6 non seniors on this year's varsity team with no JV or middle school team). With the school district's reluctance to add the sport, the number of teams will continue to drop as the parent run programs are not able to sustain themselves. Is this good or bad??? Can be seen both ways. Is outlawing Varsity II teams in the best interest??? Maybe, maybe not. I understand all your arguments. Lower Merion is an "unpure" team - should they be playing against "pure" teams. They are not eligible for FC same as V II teams. Are they "unpure" because they can't field a full team as a "pure" team (I don't know)??. Maybe the V II teams should play in their own league with the "unpure" teams. Not a bad idea. That might draw other teams back to playing, such as Cheltenham combining with say Springfield. Lehigh Valley has an unpure division. Outlaw V II teams and unpure teams and I think the reality is now there are just fewer teams in the competition pool; and despite what people think, I don't think you see a sudden increase in enrollment at other schools from those players on V II teams who are no longer able to play HS hockey at their own school. For example, LaSalle is in Springfield Twp, there are several hockey players at LaSalle on the lower teams that live in Springfield - If LaSalle drops those teams tomorrow, I don't think you get those players transfer to Springfield just to play hockey. Yes there needs to be a set of rules that all must follow, but that has to start at the league level. As long as you have school "club" teams playing against full sanctioned varsity teams - the playing fields will never be level. It will be a radical change in the structure of hockey in general to make HS hockey act like other sports. This message has been edited. Last edited by: ralphy, |
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hgpfan,
Shanahan has 5 returning AAA players for next year. 7 returning at the VA level. 15 at the JV level and 6 incoming freshmen. Doesn't look too rosy there. Their middle school program has done pretty well the last couple of years, but quite a few of the middle schoolers are going elsewhere. ralphy, You seem to have quite a polar different view about HS hockey than CarlWood. |
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That's why a move to PIHL would be a great move. Matt, Eastern PA needs to be united. |
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We'd love to see LaSalle come back to the ICSHL--I can probably find them some prime time ice slots at IceLine.
 Besides, the ICSHL bylaws already require PIAA rules compliance on transfers and foreign exchange students, so they'll fit right in.As far as joining the PIHL (and I thought you were one of Jeff Mauro's buddies), I don't think so any time soon. Too many personality issues, too much turmoil out there. I'm not really sure why somebody from far western NY should be advising programs in eastern PA to join a league in western PA that we've all had issues with. There a big gap between (old) exits 11 and 18 on the PA turnpike that provides a healthy separation. If we can get our house in order in eastern PA, then it might be time to talk. |
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Maybe not....but the kids from Springfield will no longer transfer to La Salle to play "Varsity" hockey unless it is for the true Varity/AAA team. You can't tell me that some parents along with players dont have an ego trip, and to be able to say they play "Varsity at La Salle" does help fill that ego. If second and third liners from Springfield, Wissahickon and Abington were told that they can go to La Salle to play JV how many will do so? Some will....most wont, they'd rather play varsity at their Public school than JV at a private school. I really don't have a problem with the BEST players leaving their public schools to play at La Salle, Malvern, O'Hara etc. But as Carl said, when players are being stockpiled to fill out 2-3-4 varsity teams, it is crippling the pool of players that the public schools have to choose from. GA is consistantly a baseball powerhouse and thier JV team won the 2006 Inter-Ac JV championship. How come they aren't playing at the varsity 'A' level this year instead of JV? (no need to answer that, I know the answer) |
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Matt,
If parents are paying $14,000 to send their kids to LaSalle to play on the 2nd or 3rd Varsity Hockey team - that's the wrong reason!!!! Maybe you would think the academics has something to do with it???? Here's an example - Springfield had 12 "skaters" this year with no Freshman. There are two boys (freshmen, both hockey players) that are sons of the families that run that program. Both could have played and contributed to that team. One goes to LaSalle and played on the 4th team, and one goes to Roman (I'm not sure if he is even playing hockey there). It was their son's choices for school. The father of the boy at LaSalle said his son needed the challenge academically, it was much better for him there ACADEMICALLY then it would have been at Springfield. With losing 9 seniors, Springfield will be hard pressed to field a team next year. Those parents who are heavily involved in running that program had every reason to want them to go to Springfield, but hockey was not the reason for the choice of school for their sons. Another example - Hatboro Horsham has been struggling to find enough players over the last couple of years. The program knows there are several club hockey players in the school (that still play club, some played JV -when they had a JV team, and some played varsity as freshmen) that could contribute to the team, but they are not interested in playing HS hockey. If they could just convince some of them to play, they'd be much more competitive. There are many other schools in Suburban (and I'm sure elsewhere) that have the same problem. No school in the "A" division of Suburban has a JV team - not one (some like PW & Springfield have had them drop off in the recent past). What does that say about the health of HS hockey?????? Is it teams with multiple varsities creating that problem??? I don't think so. Many of the schools in suburban are "club" teams not supported by the schools. No varsity letters, no notariety from the school or their peers for playing on the school hockey team. It makes it a little harder to sell. Some of these schools don't even allow any type of information to be posted on the hockey teams in the school (tryouts, schedules etc). Does the fact that LaSalle fields 4 teams entice kids to go there - sure. Is there ego involved - sure, but not as much as you think. Would many of them go there anyway if there wasn't multiple varsity teams - absolutely yes. There are many athletes in many sports there - heck they had 70+ baseball players try out for Varsity/JV baseball for what 30 spots???? A lot of them could play varsity elsewhere too - but don't transfer out!!! How many high school hockey players are being siphoned off by Junior Teams???? If LaSalle only fielded 1 Varsity and 1 JV hockey team, you will have more players in the "pool" that could play for other schools, but it would not have the impact most people think on the ability of those schools to field teams??? No. LaSalle draws students from a large area (Phila, Bucks, Montgomery & Delaware Counties). So hypothetically with only two teams, that would make 35 to 40 additional "players" available, say 1/2 would go to LaSalle anyway (I think that number would be larger but for argument's sake let's say half). So that makes 20 players available, distributed over a large number of school districts. So maybe you'd have 3 players in any given school district. How many of those would be "impact" players???? Assuming the LaSalle IV team (4 - 21 - 1 in Suburban A, leading scorer 13 points) didn't exist this past year, how many of those players (if they would have went to school elsewhere) would have taken away a Varsity roster spot from a player at another school???? Very few if any. Would a couple of those players helped fill out teams elsewhere - yes. Serious hockey players look to play AAA club or Junior for the best competition, not high school. Playing High School hockey is not the highest level of competition or a platform for athletic scholarships as it is in other sports. HS hockey has too much competition. Many players at many schools play HS for "fun" and do not take it seriously. How many high school hockey practices are fully attended by all players?? Many players don't ever practice with their HS teams because of conflicts with club team practice, and coaches have no recourse because without those players they be hard pressed to field a team. What other HS sport allows that???? As long as high school hockey is a hybrid of "club" teams and school supported teams, teams will continue to struggle and continue to drop off the map. Other than the Central League, how many leagues/divisions in this area have had the same schools in it two years in a row???? Schools with multiple varsity hockey teams is not the problem with HS Hockey. This message has been edited. Last edited by: ralphy, |
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Moderator |
First: I never siad that multiple varsities "Is THE problem with HS hockey", it is just one of many.
I beleive that many kids are attending La Salle for the academic advantages. So why do those kids (not good enough for the varsity or JV team) have to play hockey for La Salle? Their are other options. DVHL or house league for instance. "If LaSalle only fielded 1 Varsity and 1 JV hockey team, you will have more players in the "pool" that could play for other schools, but it would not have the impact most people think on the ability of those schools to field teams??? No." Yes, THREE kids from a school district (As you said in another paragraph)can make a diffrence....if Wissahickon doenst field a team because they have nine skaters.....wouldnt three more help, even make a difference? "Many of the schools in suburban are "club" teams not supported by the schools. No varsity letters, no notariety from the school or their peers for playing on the school hockey team. It makes it a little harder to sell. Some of these schools don't even allow any type of information to be posted on the hockey teams in the school (tryouts, schedules etc)." Agreed, that is something else that needs to change. And as Carl stated in an earlier post, It's easier to "sell" hockey to these schools, when Hockey looks and resembles all of the sports that the AD's are used to dealing with. I also agree with your point about club/junior hockey. Forever I have felt a split season is in order, but rink ownership around here is against that. "heck they had 70+ baseball players try out for Varsity/JV baseball for what 30 spots????" This staement completly supports my arguement. So are the extra 40 baseball players that cut from Varsity or JV playing 'A' baseball for La Salle against small public schools? This message has been edited. Last edited by: Matt Sacks, |
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Matt, Your right, you never said that multiple varsity was the problem, that was too harsh a statement.
My point comes down to the statement that LaSalle parents hear all the time, if LaSalle wasn't allowed to have multiple varsity teams, there would be more players for everyone. I personally think you might have 10 players in the program now that wouldn't have gone there if that was the case (not the 20 in the hypothetical situation). Divide that up over the 20 or so districts that LaSalle draws from, it's not the impact people think. It's not going to help those "club" teams (in the long run) without JV teams that are struggling to keep their programs alive. You mentioned Wissahickon, I know of 4 boys(there may be more) that play hockey at LaSalle, 3 of which play on the top two teams and have seen time with the top team, so they would be there anyway. The other is a junior on the 4th team, he's not there for hockey. Again my opinion is that the end result would be you have fewer teams in the competition pool, and fewer kids playing high school. Do those other kids have to play HS hockey - of course not, most of them already play club. It's up to the leagues to make that call. If they do, so be it. I completely understand your argument. I hope you understand mine. Peace! |
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And I hear all the time about the "stellar" academics at LaSalle. Parents may send their kids to LaSalle for reasons other than hockey, but Springfield can more than hold its own academically, as can all of the surrounding public schools. I have no connection whatsover with Springfield, but I do know a thing or two about measures of academic achievement.
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It would be easier to force all schools to have only one varsity and one to two JV teams (can be debated depending on size). By forcing this on schools it forces them to field the best possible teams. Yes some kids will get cut and probably be upset along with their parents but that is life. If Lasalle, Malvern, etc. were forced to drop their lower teams then kids will end up more than likely play for their public school. IT is bs that every kid who goes to Lasalle went for academics. If that were the case then their varisty II teams wouldn't be as good. I mean what are the chances that they all went to Lasalle for academics and happened to be good at hockey... not likely. More power to the private schools for recruiting but it does create an elitest atmosphere. If Lasalle or Malvern does have a JV team and smash up against everyone else, well to bad. The other programs need to build themselves up. There is a fine line between what is right for the schools and what is right for the league/hockey. Overall you need set guidelines that can be revamped every couple of years to fit the current times. Just a thought
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There is a kid, good hockey player, who lives right down the street from me, who plays hockey for Holy Ghost's varstiy team. I go to public school, and if that kid went to my school, the district he lives in, and plays on the varsity team I do, maybe he helps us win one of those 1 goal games. We win another 1-2 games last year, maybe my team gets a higher Flyers Cup seeding and which could have changed the outcome of the Flyers Cup. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that as little as one kid can make a difference.
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i see your point, but the bottom line is your neighbor had the choice of hgp or public school. he chose hgp it works both ways too. 2 years ago hgp had two 8th graders that were going to go there. they are 2 of the best players for their age in the district (1991, 1990). both decided to go to prep school in the spring of their 8th grade year. these 2 players would undoubtedly have made a huge impact on the team last year. they chose elsewhere. even though one player may mean more to a public school then a private, it still does happen to private schools, and they have to live with it too. |
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HGP, were those two kids you speak of students in a Catholic Elementary school? OR were they public school students? If they were students in a Catholic school then I can understand your argument. However if they were public school students who showed some interest in your program I don’t think you can claim that as a loss. After all if they weren’t part of your feeder school system then there was no logical progression for them to become student athletes at your school in the first place. If they investigated 5 other private schools would those schools also be able to claim a loss?
See it really does not go both ways! |
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not sure what grade schools. they were accepted and registered. they chose out of the area prep schools after this. im not saying 2 kids lived in a district that hgp draws from. the 2 kids, had applied, been accepted and registered for the following year. i guess you could say their public school districts lost out too, but those public schools look like they would have been the 3rd choice anyway. one is probably the 2nd best 1991 forward in the district, the other went to bantam nationals with the rockets. the two arent marginal players, they are both big time talents. so, you can look at it anyway you want, but people in the hgp program saw it as a definite loss. |
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Your Homepage Name cgi.breakawaymonthly.com Forums Breakaway! Message Boards High School Hockey Lower Bucks - Suburban
cgi.breakawaymonthly.com Forums Breakaway! Message Boards High School Hockey Lower Bucks - Suburban