The issue of permitting multiple varsities is a local league issue. When North Penn's JV football team is allowed into the PIAA "AA" District playoffs, I'll be willing to consider second varsities' eligiblity for the Flyers Cup.

Let's talk about the advantages a second varsity gives to schools who can field them:

1. player development--younger players get to play better competition while waiting for a spot on the "big team" to open up.
2. cost--in most leagues, varsity games charge admission, and varsity teams play more games for a lower cost than JV teams.
3. warehousing--have a place to stash players while waiting for that same spot on the "big team" to open up.
4. peace in the valley--have a place for the schools' other student-athletes to play "varsity" hockey, when their place on the "big team" is taken by the latest recruited stud Bantam AAA player on the market.

If quality competition for the top JV teams (any team that's not your varsity is a "junior" varsity) is a problem, why not organize an inter-league JV elite schedule for those schools. Why should my varsity have to assist your hockey program as it takes advantage of 1-2-3-4 above?

If the purpose of JV teams is to develop players for the varsity team at each school, maybe we should focus a little more on that objective, instead of treating the JV teams as Midget-B travel teams.

Carl,

I agree with you on all points here.

It's really simple - placing those LaSalle teams at the JV level to blow away the other JV teams has no point for the league. It's a matter of putting those teams at a level of competition for everyone's benefit (thus the league and school agreeing to move tems up this past year). CB South had Varsity AA and 3 JV teams (AA,A & B) in suburban.

HGP has 3 teams, Varsity, JV and Freshmen, based on the setup of Lower Bucks league. HG's JV team which tied and beat LaSalle's Varsity 4 team this past year could compete at Varsity A in Suburban - and what would be wrong with that????

As it is in Suburban, none of the 8 teams that played Varsity A (not including LaSalle)have a JV team - a few have a middle school team. At least one of those (Springfield M) is not likely to be able to field a team next year (only 6 returning players). Wissahickon played most of the year with less than 10 skaters. So possibly adding HGP JV as a Varsity A in Suburban keeps the "A" league at 9 teams, and makes it more competitive for the remaining teams.

Your point of what are you playing for if your not FC eligible???? You're playing for your school. Not everyone believes that winning trophies is what it's all about.

I'd like to see the divisions aligned more along the traditional setup in the other sports. We have finished at the bottom of the AA standings for 2 years now and I am getting pressure from parents and players to drop down to A. SHSHL, to my knowledge, is the only league where teams are segregated into AA and A divisions. My feeling is, if we are classified as AA, we should play AA. The football team or the baseball team does not have the option of dropping down to a lesser level of competition if they think they will have trouble competing in a given year. The goal here is to play against teams on a level field. Talent levels are cyclical and should not be a factor at the HS level.

quote:

Originally posted by ralphy:

Your point of what are you playing for if your not FC eligible???? You're playing for your school. Not everyone believes that winning trophies is what it's all about.

I don't think my post talked at all that "winning" trophies as a second varsity issue... my points were about why second varsities were not good for HS hockey. I am not even addressing how many (if any) potential players for those small, struggling SHSHL "A" teams are locked up on the LaSalle Blue, Gold, "A" teams, but I am sure there are a few and they would be impact players at those schools, if not at LaSalle. So if the problem is finding quality competition for JV teams, fix it at the JV level, don't make a varsity problem.

When LaSalle fields more varsity teams than the LBCSHL,do we drop the Bucks league and add LaSalle to the Flyers Cup Committee?

Carl

I can't argue any of your points, only that HS hockey is not like any other HS sport. The majority of teams are not sanctioned by the schools but club teams started by parents of hockey players who wanted to wear their school colors and play for their school. Now as their kids leave high school, other families are not taking over, and the teams are beginning to drop off. And maybe that's what everyone wants, fewer teams, less competition. Until schools make hockey teams sanctioned varsity sports, there will be no level playing field for all involved. I don't see school districts suddenly adding teams as varsity sports, so what do you do.

At times this site really pays dividends for people to read, post, and interact ...

", so what do you do..."

I guess the only answer is you keep plugging away to improve HS hockey. My son is five years gone from HS (graduating PSU in Engineering soon), and here I am still. Why? partly because I've fallen in love with the sport of hockey, partly because I'd like to give other kids a chance at the same fabulous experience he had, partly because its really interesting to do.

I have been part of a HS program that achieved official recognition, varsity status, "equal" funding with other sports teams. I can tell you that it was critical to achieving that to "be just like all the other HS sports teams..." HS hockey will never be free ($300+/hour ice guarantees that), but it can be recognized.

You are right, hockey has some significant handicaps to overcome in its pursuit of official recognition. But keep in mind Boys Lacrosse (with fewer schools playing it state-wide) is about to get PIAA recognition. Why? Here's some possibilities: the programs are organized like school teams and lack the distraction of concurrent travel hockey clubs; lacrosse plays in the recognized "spring" sports season; lacrosse can be played on school fields where the schools have juristiction, safety, and revenue control (if there is a gate $); successful public school lacrosse programs are built on successful community recreation programs for the sport, not on "for profit" travel programs. I knew Springfield's reign as the premium Central League lacrosse program was in trouble when I drove by a Ridley athletic field (Folsom) and saw what looked like a thousand little kids all swinging lacrosse sticks--events proved that one right.

So what to do? If HS hockey continues to be dramatically different than other HS sports, it won't be "recognized". If parents' groups want to run the programs "their way" (sound like the "travel" world?) instead of following the schools' rules, it won't be "recognized". School AD's are loathe to re-distribute their funding among new teams, unless you can make a case that your student-athlete deserves the same treatment as somebody else's who happens to play an older, established HS sport.

We can make this happen, but it will require a long-term committment to making it so.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CarlWood,

quote:

Originally posted by ralphy:
It's really simple - placing those LaSalle teams at the JV level to blow away the other JV teams has no point for the league. It's a matter of putting those teams at a level of competition for everyone's benefit (thus the league and school agreeing to move tems up this past year). CB South had Varsity AA and 3 JV teams (AA,A & B) in suburban.

HGP has 3 teams, Varsity, JV and Freshmen, based on the setup of Lower Bucks league. HG's JV team which tied and beat LaSalle's Varsity 4 team this past year could compete at Varsity A in Suburban - and what would be wrong with that????

As it is in Suburban, none of the 8 teams that played Varsity A (not including LaSalle)have a JV team - a few have a middle school team. At least one of those (Springfield M) is not likely to be able to field a team next year (only 6 returning players). Wissahickon played most of the year with less than 10 skaters. So possibly adding HGP JV as a Varsity A in Suburban keeps the "A" league at 9 teams, and makes it more competitive for the remaining teams.

Your point of what are you playing for if your not FC eligible???? You're playing for your school. Not everyone believes that winning trophies is what it's all about.

Here's the real point. With 4 varsity teams and a JV, LaSalle has approximately 100 HS players. All of those players are eligible to play for someone else (public school). How many of those other schools are struggling for numbers? How many of them could use the players that are currently on LaSalle 3, 4 & JV? (I didn't include LaSalle 2 because that's the true feeder for the #1 team) So because LaSalle is stockpiling players, other teams lose out? Let's face it, how many of those kids on 3, 4 and JV will ever see the #1 team?

Put the 2 team in an elite JV league with the others and let them compete there. It's the same concept for AAA where the whole schedule is crossover.

quote:

Originally posted by sm14:

quote:

Originally posted by ralphy:
It's really simple - placing those LaSalle teams at the JV level to blow away the other JV teams has no point for the league. It's a matter of putting those teams at a level of competition for everyone's benefit (thus the league and school agreeing to move tems up this past year). CB South had Varsity AA and 3 JV teams (AA,A & B) in suburban.

HGP has 3 teams, Varsity, JV and Freshmen, based on the setup of Lower Bucks league. HG's JV team which tied and beat LaSalle's Varsity 4 team this past year could compete at Varsity A in Suburban - and what would be wrong with that????

As it is in Suburban, none of the 8 teams that played Varsity A (not including LaSalle)have a JV team - a few have a middle school team. At least one of those (Springfield M) is not likely to be able to field a team next year (only 6 returning players). Wissahickon played most of the year with less than 10 skaters. So possibly adding HGP JV as a Varsity A in Suburban keeps the "A" league at 9 teams, and makes it more competitive for the remaining teams.

Your point of what are you playing for if your not FC eligible???? You're playing for your school. Not everyone believes that winning trophies is what it's all about.

Here's the real point. With 4 varsity teams and a JV, LaSalle has approximately 100 HS players. All of those players are eligible to play for someone else (public school). How many of those other schools are struggling for numbers? How many of them could use the players that are currently on LaSalle 3, 4 & JV? (I didn't include LaSalle 2 because that's the true feeder for the #1 team) So because LaSalle is stockpiling players, other teams lose out? Let's face it, how many of those kids on 3, 4 and JV will ever see the #1 team?

Put the 2 team in an elite JV league with the others and let them compete there. It's the same concept for AAA where the whole schedule is crossover.

fact. 75% of those kids will never play lasalle aaa. you may pay your dues for 3 years, but by senior year theres a good chance there will be a freshman lasalle kid that is still better then the senior.

you also cant look at it as lasalle stockpiling players. in the end its the kids choice. whos to say they are at lasalle for hockey. maybe they are there for soccer/baseball/lax and happen to play hockey. maybe they are there for academics and want to play hockey too. or maybe some are just there for hockey only. whos to say that if those kids didnt go to lasalle they would even go to their local public school. maybe some of those kids would go to ga, holy ghost or st joes prep, etc, or go to a private school that doesnt have a hockey team. theres alot of ifs there. lasalle is a big school, with good athletic teams, so its no surprise they have a big hockey program. i just dont think they should have 4 varsity teams regardless.

Gang,
It’s all pretty simple when you get down to it. LaSalle has out grown the region and the competition. (I know no Flyers Cup Championship in the last few yeas but that really is irrelevant to this discussion) It should be playing an exclusive prep schedule and not getting fat at the expense of all of the other programs. To ask everyone else to submit to their view (or their parents view) of how many teams and at what levels they should be allowed to compete at is not fair to the rest of the teams in the area. They have done a marvelous job but it really is time for them to move onto a more challenging schedule.

Why the SHSHL has allowed them to place a team at the AA level makes no sense at all. Without looking closely at their schedule I’m sure that by them beating up on some AA teams that it prevented those teams from being considered for a birth in the Flyers Cup. That fact that everyone involved knew that they could only act as a spoiler and not act a as a AA representative begs the question. Why even let them in the league? If the answer was because we did not want to see any kids not have a place to play, then I say its time to tell those kids to grow up and go play club hockey.

Just my opinion

I just dont understand why La Salle II, O'Hara II, Malvern II, Shanahan II Ridley II etc. cant all get together and play each other in an elite JV league.

The arguement is they are "too good" for JV? Well there enough of them to play each other.

I suspect that if the SHSHL decided to rule out multiple varsity teams, LaSalle probably turn around and apply for membership in the ICSHL again. A rule like this needs to be applied across the board. Another reason why there should be a governing body over all HS hockey in EPA.

Matt,

I know that Shanahan will not have a second varsity team this coming year. They are in a down cycle with graduating seniors (23 seniors out, 6 eighth graders in). They had the second varsity team because they had the numbers, and to try to keep up with the Jones' (i.e. Malvern, O'Hara & LaSalle), as well as being forced into playing AAA.

quote:

Originally posted by lemieux66:
Matt,

I know that Shanahan will not have a second varsity team this coming year. They are in a down cycle with graduating seniors (23 seniors out, 6 eighth graders in). They had the second varsity team because they had the numbers, and to try to keep up with the Jones' (i.e. Malvern, O'Hara & LaSalle), as well as being forced into playing AAA.

does shanahan have a pretty good fututre? i thought they had some solid 10th, 9th and 8th graders?

There's been a good variety of opinions about how HS hockey should be resturctured. Here's a few more thoughts:

1) Why reinvent the wheel? Why not simply use the method that current administrators and athletic directors are most familiar with - the PIAA? There are current PIAA varsity sports with 3 levels like hockey. In Pennsylvania, there is no PIAA distinction between public & private - you either comply with the PIAA approach or you're not a member. The NJSIAA approach is also a possible solution, with separate public & private "stovepipes", but the tiers are still based on school size, not the youth hockey club approach of tiers based on perceived strength.

2) Most folks seem to forget the PIAA does not legislate anything other than grades 9-12. The PIAA spends much time reviewing student-athlete eligiblity after a student begins 9th grade, but simply does not have any impact for the younger grades. Anyone who starts 9th grade and then transfers must have the "losing" school principal sign off on a certification saying the transfer was not for athletic reasons. The Phila Catholic League currently has a similar rule in place - a few years ago LaSalle used the rule to have a student transfer sit out a year before being able to play varsity basketball for Father Judge.

3) If the mission is main stream acceptance of ice hockey, one should be ready to comply with the scholastic models already in place.