I really like Big Jim's ideas from the icshl playoffs thread. To echo some of his ideas, and throw a few new ones in too. I like the idea of conferences divided into counties, to create geographical rivals. I think it is still a great idea to have teams selected for the Flyers Cup by a committee. Similar to the PIAA and NCAA. It should be each organizations duty to develope kids at the middle school level (like any other sport at public school) so they have a competetive high school team.

As for the Lower Bucks League's Commissioners Cup (good for other leagues too); I liked the idea of having a tournament similar to the Beanpot. I would suggest this takes place either around Thanksgiving. With 1 vs 2 (championship) and 3 vs 4 taking place Thanksgiving Eve. With round robin/preliminary play taking place the Thursday before and also the Monday and Tuesday of Thanksgiving week. Or have it take place in February before the Flyers Cup. It would be great too if the BC Courier Times published a preview section in the paper, to let everyone know its taking place, and give previews for each team.

AAA Major Division (10 teams)
HGP, Lasalle, Malvern, Ohara, Roman, St Joes, Ryan, Judge, Bonner, Salesianum.

These teams would play each other twice, for 18 game league schedule. The remainder of games (28 for example) are up to the team to schedule. Its their decision if they want to play a prep team, NJ team, AA team, another AAA team, etc with their 10 extra games.

AAA Minor Division (20 teams)
Carroll V, GA V, Haverford School V, Episcopal V, Chestnut Hill V, Neumann-Goretti V, Wood V, Shanahan V, CEC V, McDevitt V, Lansdale Catholic V, HGP JV, Lasalle JV, Malvern JV, Ohara JV, Roman JV, St Joes JV, Ryan JV, Judge JV, St Puis V*, Academy New Church V*, Upland CD*, North Catholic V*

2 divisions based on geography. 2 games vs division opponents, and 1 game vs other division. 18 division games, 9 cross division games for a total of 27 games. It will definitely be possible for teams to move up and down too, but must be warranted.

Bucks Conference (10 teams, possibly 12)
Neshaminy, Pennsbury, Bensalem*, Truman*, Tennent, CR North, CR South, CB East, CB West, CB South, Pennridge, Quakertown.

Montgomery Conference
Abington, Hatboro-Horsham, North Penn, P-W, Quakertown, Souderton, UD, Upper Moreland, Wissahickon, Methacton, PV, not sure on the rest.

Chester Conference
WC East, Henderson, Rustin, Downingtown East, Downingtown West, not sure on rest

Delco Conference
Haverford, Marple, Ridley, Kennent, Penncrest, Springfield not sure on the rest

Same set-up for Lehigh Valley and Central PA.

Makes good sense HGP. The major point here is that all these leagues need to come under one roof.

Lacrosse did it. Most, if not all, of the teams are varsity sports, not part of PIAA, but they are all part of one organization (EPSLA).

Times have changed, and the time for all these separate leagues has passed. There needs to be greater organization for the good of the sport. It is so painfully obvious but the decision makers seem to be oblivious.

Maybe it's time for a group to step forward and actually start this league. Maybe then, when teams start to defect from their current league affiliations, this thing can gain some momentum.

ReAlignment in Eastern Pennsylvania will work if you include the CPIHL, LVIHL and NEPHSHL.

Being a part of Western Pa's realignment nearly 10 years ago, I can tell you that it works and cuts alot of politics out of the playoffs. At the end of the day, all of the teams will EARN their way into the playoffs and also rivalries can be a great part of any re-alignment.

I would say that the Class AAA as its stands now is very close to where it should be and if whoever does the alignment keeps the Geographic confines of less than an hours travel for multiple divisions, it will work.

The other VERY IMPORTANT factor is WHO will RUN the league and three things need to be carried out that were not in Western Pa and has really hurt any growth:

1 - Keep Volunteerism and pay stipends to people for USA Hockey Registration, Scheduling, etc [the operations jobs]. Also, a new board will need to have term limitations, so that people can only serve in those positions for 2 years.

2 - Try to keep the cost down as much as possible to foster more growth and to grow new programs and not hemmorage them with a lot of fees and fines etc.

3 - Pay someone to promote and market the league and its players [a Public Relations Director] with a duty of helping the schools promote themselves and the league.

I have more ideas than this but this is a start and I wish the best to Philly to get this done. This is a conversation I had 7 years ago in a meeting at the Skatium with all of the Eastern Presidents and I's love to help !

The leagues need to read the writing on the wall and do whats best before the individual teams take it upon themselves to get it done. Remember, in Northern Pa, the teams have the power to decide what leagues they want to play in and who they want to run them.

Again, if these leagues want to maintain some type of control they need to get moving on a new system simular to the ones proposed or the teams will take care of it themselves!!

BTW, PAHOCKEY, I love your idea on limited terms to 2 years. Should be in the bylaws that no rink owners or paid employees are permitted on those boards. It would eliminate conflicts.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: oldschool,

The ideas being presented are all a good step in the right direction.

However, there are distinctions to be made, as someone mentioned, Lacrosse has done it, but Lacrosse for the most part is a sanctioned sport (run by the school) in most if not all high schools now, with the backing of schools and school districts, it is easier to get everyone to agree to be governed under one umbrella just like every other sport. Ice hockey with it's mix of "club" teams, partially sanctioned, and fully sanctioned teams just won't be that easy. Way too much politics and money involved. I believe this can only be in baby steps first that has to start by a number of teams getting together and trying to get the "modus operandi" changed.

I think the league doing it's best is to change and align is Suburban. This year they set up their divisions close to the suburban 1 league in other sports, using the same designations (Continental, American, National), and with one or two exceptions to balance the leagues, place teams in the same division the schools play for in other sports. They have Pennsbury and Neshaminy playing both Suburban and Lower Bucks, they play the old rivalries in LB along with schools that the kids play in all other sports as well. (and there is talk of both leaving Lower Bucks for Suburban permanently). They do play crossover games with other leagues that don't count in their league standings, and within their league they play the same consistent schedule as every other team, so that standings and playoffs are meaningful.

Placing 26 teams in one division/league in intercounty just doesn't make sense. Records are decieving with some schools playing more difficult schedules than others, some schools play others 3 times, some twice, once, none etc. Crossover games against Eastern teams that count in the standings, when the teams played are at random. There seems to be no consistency. I'm not sure how anyone could be happy with that arrangement. Even the power point system that is being used for the tournament seeding in intercounty has it's flaws being that it's based on teams playing an unbalanced schedule. I think the baby steps include here to create meaningful divisions (from the start of the season), play consistent schedules and crossovers that are consistent (everyone in division "A" plays everyone in "B" once, twice, whatever it needs to be) or similar to suburban, the games do not count in a divsion standing.

Right now, until the power base changes or enough schools get together to effect the change, it's probably the most we can hope for.

The point I was trying to make about lacrosse is that those teams do not belong to PIAA but they still have a single governing body (EPSLA) that manages all the teams.

It seems to me that the fact that they are varsity teams is all the more reason to have them belong to an association. Otherwise, each school would be off doing it's own thing.

Hockey should follow this model. I guess lacrosse did not have to "undo" years of operating in separate kingdoms. They pretty much organized it correctly from the start.

Problem is the guy you complain about is also part of the district, and can come down on people that way if you don't follow what they want.

Lacrosse is on track to be PIAA within 2 years.

Ok, here is my contribution and plan for realignment and consolidation of hockey for Southeastern Pennsylvania. I took a little bit from everyone on this and shaped into something I thought would work. I'm sure you all will tell me different, but here it goes:

First they both have had great runs and have a lot of great tradition, but the tradition is like a lead weight on the neck of hockey in this area. For the growth and betterment of the game for players and the organizations it is time to say goodbye to the Lower Bucks (LBCSHL) and Eastern Leagues (EHSHL) as Varsity hockey leagues. Would love to see them stay on as JV and Developmental, but will they go for it??? The reasons are obvious and I feel this is long overdue. These leagues no longer have the quality nor quantity of competitive Varsity programs to still carry the "weight" they seem to carry. Their leaders will definitely be board members of their new league, but the time for bickering is over. Get it together for the kids and leave your agendas at home. Everyone!!! This only works with everyone on board and leaving the past in the past!!

This happens everyday in this country. Like most things with hockey in this area we are behind the times.

With this being completed here is how I feel the new leagues should be structured starting with AAA:

Philadelphia Private & Catholic School League

AAA Major
Malvern Prep
Cardinal O'Hara
LaSalle
St. Joe's Prep
Monsignor Bonner
Archbishop Ryan
Holy Ghost Prep
Father Judge
Roman Catholic
Germantown Acad.

AAA - Minor
Archbishop Carroll
Salesianum
Episcopal Academy
Haverford School
Archbishop Wood
Neumann - Goretti
Bishop Shanahan
Lansdale Catholic
LaSalle II
Malvern II
Cardinal O'Hara II
Roman Catholic II
St. Joe's Prep II

Not much change here except for the creation of the AAA Minor division, which will act similar to English League Soccer with teams being asked to join or leave AAA Major depending on the growth and strength of their programs. With hopefully the league membership and board to determine who is added / subtracted from the AAA.
1. II teams - not eligible to move up.
2. AAA Major - are the only teams that are Flyers Cup eligible (AAA Minor not eligible for Flyers Cup)
3. AAA Major Division – everyone plays each other twice, final regular season records determine Flyers Cup seeding.

Playoffs = Flyers Cup (just like Western PA) Not much change.


4. AAA Minor Division – Everybody plays each other twice and the top 8 make playoffs with a best of three Final. (Yes it’s a 22 game season, but there is no Flyers Cup for them and we are looking to DEVELOP these teams to improve and move up.


ICSHL (Inter County)

AA Campbell
Boyertown
Methacton
Spring-Ford
Downingtown East
Downingtown West

AA - Wales
Conestoga
Haverford High
Lower Merion
Ridley
Upper Darby

A - Chester
Kennett
Perkiomen Valley
Unionville
W. C. East
W. C. Henderson
W. C. Rustin

A - Central
Marple-Newtown
Penncrest
Springfield
Strath Haven
Radnor

A - DelValley
Garnet Valley
Great Valley
Interboro
Sun Valley
Twin Valley

Schedule: 18 games total
8 games (10 for Chester Div.) = play each division opponent twice
10 games vs. traditional rivals = (5) (ex. Perk Val vs. Methacton)
and other teams in your class A or AA = (5)



Playoffs:16 teams
#1 - #5 seeds = Division winners, seeded on Overall record
#6 - #16 seeds = the next 11 best, based on Overall record regardless of division
(NCAA Basketball style = #1 vs. #16 , #2 vs. #15 etc…. ) with the Final being a best of three.

I know this looks like how it used to be a bit, but I think it reflects more of the NHL thought process, while playing more games in your own classification AA or A and keeping the traditional rivalries alive and meaningful for your season.


SHSHL (Suburban)

I like there set up and used a lot of it as you can see. Obviously, they absorb Pennsbury and Neshaminy, full time!

Mid-Season (Christmas??) Contender / Pretender Tournament

Top teams from ICSHL, SHSHL, and CPIHL play a small 3-day invitation Tournament (AA & A brackets) so the Flyers Cup Committee can get a mid-season look at some teams and gets the CPIHL more of a showcase against the other teams they don’t usually get to compete against but once a year and some crossovers.

Just my thoughts. I know this has holes in it and I’m sure you all will show me how many. I’m willing to answer questions and discuss this as best I can.

Fire Away!!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bad Johnny,

Good ideas, I think the combining of the Lower Bucks with Suburban and Eastern with Inter-county is the first step towards any positive change.

I am still a big supporter of keeping the traditional PIAA leagues together. This helps kids play schools they are more familiar with and to keep up with the traditional rivalries built up in all school sports. I know at Radnor we always had a big crowd for Conestoga and Lower Merion but if we were ever playing Unionville (example) people in school would say, “Where is Unionville?” I know as a player I would always look forward to playing Strath Haven or Ridley in hockey because they would always beat us pretty badly in football, so it keeps a comparative familiarity with the players which I think is important. I think the closer we keep our sport in line with the PIAA the easier it is to enforce rules, and the easier it would be if the day ever came that hockey would be come a PIAA sport.

If the Eastern and Inter-County leagues merged or at least did the crossover schedule they did this year they would contain all of the members of the central league, and I am pretty sure the ICSHL already has all the members of the Ches-mont league. I am not sure which league Methacton and Perk Valley play in, of if the ICSHL has the rest of those teams.

The “A” and “AA” classifications are only a flyers cup term. In regular sports teams play teams from other classification all the time, only in the playoff’s are A, AA, and AAA separated, so I don’t see why everyone is working so hard to separate them in the first place.

I do like the idea of the AAA major and the AAA minor, keeping all the open enrollment schools in a league of their own.

The Only thing I dont like is the second varsities competing with the true AAA teams. If there are five of them, why can't thay play in an "Elite JV" division against each other?

The powers to be can call that level whatever they want as long as we reorganize the majority because its a mess right now.

Yeah, keep it coming !!

We know this is building into a true "head-banging" session(s), perhaps later this spring? The "interested" and "motivated" must find a way to get the current "powers that be" to buy into a series of adjustments and reallignments.

But let's do this right, slowly, methodically. Some changes can (should) start next season, some changes may take a few years. The ultimate goal:

1) Open and accountable board(s) with limits
2) Allignments that encourage, duplicate rivalries
3) PIAA recognition or other large affiliation
4) Split season (rink revenue neutral)
5) Others..........

The fourth point is absolutely essential. First, it may help us create more and better "home-grown" talent that can stay here longer and develop into competent college players. Second, we have to stop putting "rail-thin" 14 year-olds into six months worth of 15 hour skating weeks, playing club and school, exhausting their energy and finances just to soothe the egos of league officials and father/coaches strewn throuhgout the Delaware Valley.

quote:

Originally posted by PLATO:
Yeah, keep it coming !!

We know this is building into a true "head-banging" session(s), perhaps later this spring? The "interested" and "motivated" must find a way to get the current "powers that be" to buy into a series of adjustments and reallignments.

But let's do this right, slowly, methodically. Some changes can (should) start next season, some changes may take a few years. The ultimate goal:

1) Open and accountable board(s) with limits
2) Allignments that encourage, duplicate rivalries
3) PIAA recognition or other large affiliation
4) Split season (rink revenue neutral)
5) Others..........

The fourth point is absolutely essential. First, it may help us create more and better "home-grown" talent that can stay here longer and develop into competent college players. Second, we have to stop putting "rail-thin" 14 year-olds into six months worth of 15 hour skating weeks, playing club and school, exhausting their energy and finances just to soothe the egos of league officials and father/coaches strewn throuhgout the Delaware Valley.

Nicely stated. I couldn't agree with you more.

quote:

Originally posted by PLATO:
Yeah, keep it coming !!

We know this is building into a true "head-banging" session(s), perhaps later this spring? The "interested" and "motivated" must find a way to get the current "powers that be" to buy into a series of adjustments and reallignments.

But let's do this right, slowly, methodically. Some changes can (should) start next season, some changes may take a few years. The ultimate goal:

1) Open and accountable board(s) with limits
2) Allignments that encourage, duplicate rivalries
3) PIAA recognition or other large affiliation
4) Split season (rink revenue neutral)
5) Others..........

.

Fun stuff, like preaching to the choir. I'd limit attention to items 1-4 and get something done before we think up 9 more things that need doing--that's typically my wife's job at home.

4) I think the split season is absolutely the first priority. It addresses cost containment for the sport, encourages participation by better players, and makes the HS hockey program look like other HS sports--something lacrosse did early and correctly.

3) Boys lacrosse will be a PIAA sport, starting Spring 2009, so after this year, it will only be hockey on the outside looking in. Lacrosse started later, has fewer school teams, but got there first. Why? It has always been organized as a school sport, played on school fields, fitting comfortably into the HS sports model. Combine all the things that we do to make HS hockey "different" with the cost and building security issues that we have, and you can see why school districts and the PIAA are resistant. Yet programs HAVE succeeded in gaining school recognition and official team status by working at it. Those lacrosse teams were already official school teams for the most part, so sliding the sport under the PIAA umbrella was a (relatively) easy task.

If not the PIAA, then what "other large affiliation" is available? NFHS doesn't do it--that's for PIAA, NJSIAA, etc., members. That leaves USA Hockey and its Atlantic District affiliate to carry the load. Now there is a Byzantine organization to deal with. Actually, adopting a split season at Midget might be an excellent opportunity for the Atlantic District to show some leadership moving the sport into the future instead of vainly trying to defend their status quo. They've already lost half the District--NJ--to NFHS hockey, and Midget hockey in north Jersey is effectively split season now.

2) Unlike western PA (WPIAL), eastern PA HS has always had HS sports rivalries that cross size classes. Springfield-Ridley, Conestoga/Radnor, WC schools/Downingtown. Only for District and State playoffs did the AA/AAA/AAAA letters matter. The SHSHL has kept their Flyers Cup "A" school isolated as much because of the huge size differences between its small schools and its (really big) schools that these programs never played each other much or developed rivalries in other sports anyway. So if historic rivalries are a consideration--and they should be--then strict size-based schedules don't address them. Also, league affiliations are shifting. The "DelVal" is almost defunct (certainly for hockey). Garnet Valley is a full member of the Central League; Great Valley is in the Ches-Mont (along with Kennett, Unionville, Avon Grove); Sun Valley is joining the Ches-Mont next year.

1) I've previously drafted bylaws for the FC Committee for a consolidated organization that provided Appointees to do the grunt work--how many do you think there need to be?--and a voting Board of Directors (League Presidents) to appoint and oversee them. Paid workers, or free volunteers? Proportional (numbers of school) voting or a "one league, one vote" Board of Directors? I've got a million of those kinds of questions.

Term Limits? Good luck finding enough people to commit the time and effort. much less replacing them every 2 years. 5 years, maybe? Start with your League Presidents--they effectively control the sport through the Flyers Cup tournament--leading the sport by the ring in all our noses with it.

Complaining about the people in place is easy and not particularly enjoyed by them (and I don't mean me). When confronted with the reality of the job, putting your name and actions out publicly, and dealing with all the personalities, enthusiasm for the job quickly melts away for many people. Are you up to 20-25 emails a day that deserve a response or require an action? Remember there are bunches of people out there with their own agendas as likely to complain vocally (and anonymously) about YOU as you are about the current people. Just part of hockey.

For my part, I'd welcome a consolidated HS hockey organization in eastern PA, playing a Winter sports season. The ICSHL/EHSHL schedules I proposed and implemented have tried to retain traditional rivalries, address competitive balance, and provide quality games for Flyers Cup contenders. I'd love to eliminate "league playoffs" in favor of some mid-season holiday extravaganza (there goes the ski vacation). I am looking forward to all the volunteers stepping up publicly this spring to help us improve the sport "for the kids".