What the puck I wonder what school you coached in Western Pa ?

No other Scholastic sport has two varsity teams. These are really glorified Junior Varsity teams and really should not be playing at the Varsity level. LaSalle changed its course calling its teams Blue, White and Gold but the bottom line is that this is really a way of making those players feel as if they are Varsity players, when they in reality got cut from the first team.

High School Hockey lost credability in 1999 when LaSalle II faced Thomas Jefferson in the Class AA final, when they never should have been eligible for the Flyers Cup.

And this goes on in other states and the most glaring is Indiana, where year in and year out Culver B wins or plays for the Indiana 5A title. The best was two years ago when Culver B played Culver JV in the 5A final. Illinois puts its 2nd Varsities in the Blackhawks Cup as New Trier White and Blue compete in the same tournament for a State Title with its top team New Trier Green. There is a difference between that and West Chester Henderson, East and Bayard Rustin.

We all think that hockey should be sanctioned by the schools and now that Lacrosse is gaining it in a very short time. A sport that has been around since 1969 and on the verge of 40 years of play in Pennsylvania cannot be recognized by the governing body of High School sports. This is why and if you bring in the National High School Federation, this will go away, because the NFS has integroty to uphold the rules, rather than how many teams we can register, which is the goal of USA Hockey [charge fees].

Pa Hockey,

I coached at Gateway for 4 years and then at Central Catholic for 1 year under Lenny Semplice, who has been my most influential of mentors. Kevin Zielmanski was a senior while I was there, so it will give you an idea of how long I've been around. I then moved out to the Philly area for 5 yrs, with a brief 3 year stint in Conn. before FINALLY settling down back in Phila.

quote:

Originally posted by Pa Hockey:
These are really glorified Junior Varsity teams and really should not be playing at the Varsity level.

High School Hockey lost credability in 1999 when LaSalle II faced Thomas Jefferson in the Class AA final, when they never should have been eligible for the Flyers Cup.

As I pointed out yesterday the V2 teams in the ICSHL had very competetive records. To disagree with V2s is one thing but to disrespect the players and coaches of these teams by calling them glorified JVs that should not be playing at the Varsity level is out of line and uncalled for. I am sure plenty of Varsity teams at other schools would love to have these players on their teams (which again appears to be the driver here).

As for the 99 LaSalle II team that lost to Jefferson 7-0. Jefferson won the State AA title 3 years straight (98,99, 2000) which included a 6-1 win over Archbishop Carroll. Was sending a Carroll team that got spanked a loss of crediability?

As I pointed out yesterday the V2 teams in the ICSHL had very competetive records. To disagree with V2s is one thing but to disrespect the players and coaches of these teams by calling them glorified JVs that should not be playing at the Varsity level is out of line and uncalled for. I am sure plenty of Varsity teams at other schools would love to have these players on their teams (which again appears to be the driver here).

For the record, my stance on the new alignment is not to disperse players from V2 teams. I could personally care less what they do, because its their choice in the end. My whole argument is to have some consistency amongst high school hockey, and make it actually look like a legit varsity sport. I dont think any teams with V2s hoard players. Its been proven that you dont need a V2 to win or compete in teh Flyers Cup.

Bottomline, the V2s are JV teams, period. Regardless of who they played, where they played, how old the players are, who beat who. None of these kids made their schools first team. Even though they played varsity teams, doesnt make them varsity. Varsity is the top team, and V2 isnt.

Nobody is saying these kids arent good hockey players, but the fact of the matter is they werent good enough to make the top team. Put the 3 V2 teams you mentioned in a league with the other AAA JV teams, and you have a very good JV league, with very good competition, and yes, Im sure alot of those teams would beat alot of varsity teams.

I think V2s originated to play better competition, but have turned into a status thing. If competition is what people are worried about, there will be plenty of it in an AAA JV league. Its sounds like its the "varsity" label that people dont want to give up.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: hgp fan,

I’m spent, burnt out and exhausted on the subject. I feel like I’m beating a dead horse with my points and I dont have any fresh ones to offer. That is why I didnt respond to posts or emails yesterday.

This will be my last post on the topic.

Seven of the last eight AAA Flyers Cup winners have had multiple varsities (Fact not opinion) Is it fair to say that these teams benefit by having their JV teams play a varsity schedule so that when they are “called up” to the true varsity team, they have been prepared and battle tested against other varsity programs? (That's a question not an opinion) Isn't that yet another unfair advantage to the rest of the population that only gets to feed their roster with players that have been developed against JV competition?

IF V2 is called and treated like a varsity, why is player movement allowed between the V1 and V2 teams. After all, no other varsities can pluck players from another varsity. If Abington has an injury, they can't ask Pennsbury for a Varsity player, they have to go to their JV team. My point is: If you truly feel that V2 IS varsity, then once the roster is set, players should only be allowed to be called up from the JV team, be it the third or fourth team in the organization, whichever is labeled JV, no?

Ralphy made a point that “kids should be allowed to play varsity at LaSalle because “they want to”. I strongly disagree. I wanted to be prom King….I didn’t get it, my school didn’t come up with an alternative social event to accommodate me. Kids get cut from varsity sports all the time, there ARE options for those kids to keep playing, none of which includes forming a second varsity team to accomodate "those who want to play varsity"

Ralphy, you also said that Boraske didn't care who he played. Well, Boraske made a direct quote saying the he DID NOT want to play anyone's JV team while he was a on a varsity team. By definition of high school sports, you're #1 team is Varsity, your #2 team is JV….masquarade it however you wish But when Ridley plays O’Hara 2, they are playing O’Hara’s JV team.

(Ego?) Call it O’Hara 2, and Boraske is fine playing them, take the same team and call it O’Hara JV and now Boraske doesn’t want to play them (I'm not picking on you Steve, this is just a statement that you made that supports one of my arguments.)

I'm not out here to make enemies or offend people. This looks like it is me vs La Salle and that just isn't the case. I have the utmost respect for Wally, Jack and the LaSalle organization, I was the first to congratulate both of them when they won the Flyers Cup and The State Championship (Access to the ice helped, but none-the-less, I was the first)

WTP, to answer your question from earlier, yes, you summed up my points quite well. Amazing that we are pretty much on the same page without ever having discussed this issue privately. I’m glad you finally pointed out that you coached a V2 team, I’ve been hoping for that. HGPfan has also offered a lot of good insight, and this is coming from a kid who played for a private school that does recognize it's hockey team as a Varsity sport.

To Ralphy and Crusader, I respect and welcome your opinions and input and I thank you for conducting yourselves like gentlemen while doing so. I do understand the upside to having multiple varsities and yes, I do agree, that it is a good thing, for those that have them. Where we will have to agree to disagree is to what the adverse effects are that V2 teams have on the rest of Varsity population?

When will it stop? Does it stop at V2, V3, V4? what if LaSalle has 200 hockey players at some point? Will there be 10 varsity teams at LaSalle…..am I exaggerating? Maybe, but there have been 4 varsity teams at the same time….even that sounds like an exaggeration. I just hope that while fielding as many varsities as one school can…..that Wissahickon, Springfield, Lansdale Catholic, St. Pius, Chichester, Upper Darby and Bishop McDevitt will still be able to field ONE varsity team.

There is no need to worry about my bias opinion, I don’t have a vote at the league meetings or at the Flyers cup meetings…..so my opinion on the matter is worth no more or less than any other none voting hockey fan.

I'm done with the topic, but by no means am I trying to get the last word in….feel free to continue without me.

Matt,

Never said that "kids should be allowed to play varsity at LaSalle because they want to", somebody might have said it, it wasn't me. I think I even said on a post in response to someone that no they didn't have the right to play varsity.

Certainly the AAA teams with a V2 have an advantage over teams without. Agreed. The teams have been allowed to field V2 teams and the schools have built their programs to be in that position to field them.

V2 teams are JV to the AAA, the kids that play on them know that. The funny thing is that you mention a V4 team, the one year LaSalle had one, it was forced by the Suburban league who was upset that the JV team from the year before (lasalles 4th team) won the JV league. Wally went along with it, but it wasn't a varsity level team, my son had two concussions on that team that year, one from a kid on the other team who decided to "take him out" of the game because my son was standing on his head and the offending player didn't like losing to a V4 team.

I'm spent too, I agree with all points on the basis of making hockey follow the Varsity, JV, Freshman norm, but from the basis of eliminating them therefore potentially giving the have-nots more players, I really really disagree with you that it will give you the effect you think it will.

You bring up other schools, for example McDevitt, while making a choice, we visited the school, it's small, had treadbare carpets in a couple of classrooms, we saw broken lockers, the windows were in desperate need of repair (in fact they were trying to raise funds to replace them), the grounds were small, they had one all purpose athletic field behind the school, you get the idea. You visit LaSalle, it's a different world, from what they can offer a student to the facilities etc, what you would expect at a private school. McDevitt would have been a lot better on my bank account (and I'm sure he would have gotten a good education there), but once he got accepted to LaSalle, it was a no brainer decision, (no offense to anyone at McDevitt, I feel bad bringing up in these terms, but it was reality), but hockey didn't enter into the decision one bit. I think (actually I know) alot of other parents make the same decision as I for the same reason. Again, there are alot of other reasons kids to go LaSalle or Malvern or SJP or Roman or Ohara. It's not all about hockey (which you've said).


Thanks Matt. I agree to disagree, that's what life is all about. Peace

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ralphy,

Whew..thank god.

AAA Tier 2 is a great idea. What may be a problem is if the "valid" varsity teams assigned to play there are deemed FC ineligible. If they want to take a shot at the Cup, let them join the AAA tournament and take their chances.

You can justify and claim it's for the kids all you want. If you want to do right by the kids, make them earn their way on to the ACTUAL Varsity, not create another "Varsity" just to appease them or their parents. Sometimes cuts have to be made, it's part of life, deal with it. You go play at club and improve your game and give it another shot next year. Not everyone deserves to be on a Varsity team!

Everyone (in every sport) gets 1 Varsity team and you can call the V2's anything you want, but they are the JV. They may be a pretty damn good JV, and many of their players may be Varsity players at 99% of the other schools, but they are JV nonetheless. If you can't take being slotted or tagged JV, go somewhere else to play or work harder to make the Varsity.

Accept it and move on. It's holding the sport back in this area. The leagues can make this very easy, just slot the II teams in JV or let them all form their own Independent league if they have to have it their way.

Just because you can have two or three "Varsity" teams, doesn't make it right or legitimate.

Why you ask? Because 95% of the other schools participating in the sport don't have the same opportunity, thus it tilts the playing field unfairly. But you schools who have them (II's) will never grasp this concept:

THIS IS HIGH SCHOOL HOCKEY, NOT CLUB!!!!!!!!!!

If we stop treating it like club, maybe we'll get some damn respect from the schools and the governing bodies.

The way this is run it is club hockey (wow I found the bold key) and always will be. If you want to really look like the other varsity sports then put all the rules in place. No multiple JVs, no JV only schools, no 8th graders playing High School, no JV playoffs, no Middle School (5th graders playing with 8th graders who thinks that is a good thing?), no billet Jr players, no players living in one District and playing in another etc. Someone said this issue is an easy fix. So are the others but this issue is the only one where some "clubs" can possibly gain from it.

If you want to fix it then fix it. Otherwise its just the same old politics.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: fellows,

Thanks fellows you said it before I got the chance, until an independent governing body takes over the leagues, it's glorified club hockey.

Bad Johnny, I agree with you, V2 players are JV, they know that, these teams existed in this area for the last 20 years or so. If the leagues want to do away with them, I really don't have a problem with it. But, as I said in an earlier post, do away with all of the irregularities. I'm sure you realize there are 11 programs with a JV and no Varsity (one of those programs actually has 2 JV teams and no varsity - 12 teams total), what other HS sport has it? That's more than the 5 V2's that exist. They exist along with multiple JV teams (CB South has 3 JV teams) because HS hockey is run by leagues that collect a fee (just like PA Hockey said), the more teams, the more fee. More teams, more ice sold etc etc etc. It's purely a club concept. You enact all the rules, and what 25% of the teams disappear???? Are the leagues going allow this to happen???? I don't think so.

Maybe some school districts refuse to support it because they don't own ice rinks and can't control the costs, or have no say in the league structures, or like Springfield Montco said when the Organization that ran the program approached the district and the district was concerned that with the size of the township, were there enough players to keep the program solvent (that was one of the reasons) or was this a short time cult sport, so they didn't support it. Guess what they were right, the program that once had a MS, JV and Varsity team, doesn't exist now. It's not LaSalle's V2 team (with two players that live in Springfield Twp) that caused that to happen. LaSalle's program with multiple varsities existed long before Springfield Montco's.

Let's look at this another way, why can a public school like CB South field 4 HS teams when others can't barely field 2, can it be CB South is a brand new state of the art school (in a affluent area) that looks more like an upscale business park than a HS. Some of the parents I know who send their kids there call it the "Palace", ever seen their cafeteria, better than any HS cafeteria I've ever seen. So more kids in that area stay there and go to their public school than would have gone to say a LaSalle or Archbishop Wood, or Lansdale Catholic before CB South existed???? Maybe it's because the school district acknowledges and supports the program???? Maybe it's because of the school itself, the result of that is more students (including hockey players) stay?????

My biggest problem with it is the mindset that let's do away with them because those schools are "hoarding" or stealing players. Playing in clubs where many kids that go to Suburban league schools, we hear that all the time from the parents (not the kids). I simply don't agree on that basis alone. Like fellows said do it all. If you want to do it all, I have no argument whatsoever.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ralphy,

One last volley (honest).

Who created the V2 monster?? Was it a league or a team or a combination of both???

Three years ago, LaSalle's 3rd team won Suburban's A league, the 4th team won JVAA (both convincingly). Before the next season to avoid the same thing happening, the League strongly suggested that the 3rd team play AA, and the fourth play Varsity A. LaSalle went in with the intention of the same setup of the year before (AAA,AA,A,JVAA), they agreed to the suggestion, thus a 4th Varsity team was born.

Was this how the first V2 team was born, so that a competitve balance could be created?? I don't know, it's the most logical answer.

Every year, things are done in leagues to help teams remain competitve (and thus remain in existence). After a tough year, Hatboro Horsham requested to move "down" and play with the smaller school teams in Suburban, they were accommodated.
Eastern has two 5 team divisions A and AA. I'm sure some realize, that in a 5 team "A" division, there are teams that didn't play each other during the regular season, but yet they were seeded by their record for the league playoffs (when the teams played widely varied schedules). Isn't that bizzare to anyone??? Look at some of the schedules of Intercounty league teams, it's fairly obvious some of the weaker teams were given similary "weak" schedules so they could at least be competitive.

I'm not saying I disagree with any of this necessarily, but no other HS sport does this, if you are in a division, you play the teams in the division or at least some type of balanced schedule. In HS sports, JV teams aren't set in divisions by play level, they are set by the divisions the varsity teams are. Why shouldn't the suburban hockey league do it this way, the Suburban One League doesn't. We all know why, but it still isn't like normal HS.

The whole point is there are tons of irregularities from the normal HS sport scene. They were created by the leagues to keep as many teams viable as possible. None of us on this chat board are going to change that.

It's been a fun debate.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ralphy,

Interesting points Ralphy.

FYI, we at Hatboro-Horsham dropped down to A after 2 consecutive tough seasons and then being hit hard by graduation on top of that.

Being a AA team playing in a mostly A division pretty much excluded us from FC consideration. We did, however, play 8 games against AA teams (Quakertown, Lansdale Catholic, Cumberland Valley and Wilson) going 6 - 2 in those games but playing the rest against A teams left us out of contention. Interestingly, it did not hurt Boyertown who played a lot of games against A teams as well. I am not saying B'town did not deserve their bid, but we were told before the season even started that we had no shot because we "played down".

I hope the new setup in PIHL East makes it fair across the board because all the non-SHSHL teams are playing in mixed AA/A divisions, same as we are, so that should not be held against us. Still the problem that we will face is that the other 2 divisions in SHSHL are still 100% AA so strength of schedule may hurt us, unless we can make up the difference in crossover games. I think SHSHL/ICSHL/EHSHL crossover games will be important.

Mojo, no offense was intended, just making a point how teams are accommodated and it's not the norm in other HS sports.

A & AA are school size designations, not strength designations. The set up in ICSHL is that all teams play a mixed A & AA schedule. Boyertown played a stronger schedule and also happened to beat two very strong A teams in Perk Valley and WC East. Carl's magic rating formula that the Flyer's cup committee uses (as a guide) takes that into account, strength of schedule is important. Beating an 0 - 18 AA team 3 times really doesn't help that formula as much as would beating a mid to high ranked A team. The A teams in ICSHL for the most part are stronger than SHSHL, as can be seen by the A seeding in the Flyers cup. Playing mostly A teams didn't hurt as much the fact the A teams you played were not ranked as high as a WC East or Perk Valley. Record and strength of schedule play the biggest role, not so much A vs AA..

Good Luck next year.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ralphy,

Thanks for the compliment but Boyertown did not beat PV this past year .

No offense taken Ralphy. I just wanted to point out that the decision to play down was not taken lightly. I was not in favor of the move, but bowed to the wishes of the other board members. The league was more than happy to accomodate us to make room for Wood, who moved down from AAA.

Boyertown deserved their bid. What I wanted to emphasize was that we were told before the season even started we had no shot because we were playing with A teams. That did not seem to be the case elsewhere.

Thanks for the well wishes for next year. We are going to need it after graduating 10 seniors we will be restocking with JVB players who went 1-18-1.