matt,

interestingly enough i would say once again the boys are interested in high quality games against good teams . there is no doubt my point has been made again , yet you will not see it that way because you are predisposed to interpret the facts to support your position. no big deal. like ralphy said, and i agree, the numbers lasalle had the last couple years were a blip on a screen, they will not need to find qauality opportunities for the great number of kids inthe near future, because those numbers will probabl not be present.
i will take the risk in the near future.
thanks for offering the opportunity to "vent".

Twenty years ago (maybe even 10) it was fine and made sense for HS Hockey to be it's own animal. However as the popularity and notoriety in the schools has grown and more teams seek to be like all other sports, it doesn't make sense anymore. There are things we can't control. Cost. Amount of ice available. Insurance, Length of season (without a split season), etc. However, there are many things we can control and align with ALL HS sports. One varsity. Leagues and/or divisions. Residency requirements. No JV playoffs. Academic eligibility. Publicity in the School and Community.

Ask yourself this -- What is the purpose of a JV team? To prepare kids to play Varsity. If all the elite teams with multiple varsities are in one league (LaSalle, O'Hara, etc.) aren't they all stiving for the same goal? To win the AAA crown. So if their second team is developing the kids to win that league why can't they be a JV? If Ridley has a superior JV team (instead of V2) and they crush everyone, what's the issue? That they're better than all the other JV's? So what. Happens all the time. You think CB West, or North Penn or Pennsbury's JV teams don't romp in other sports? Sure they do. That's the way it is. Why are we so concerned about it happening in hockey? Would those schools recruit the same number of kids if they only had two (or three with a JVB) teams to fill?

At a time when we should be aligning ourselves with the way HS sports are run, we're still fighting to keep the old ways. The problem with the old ways is that they work against us getting recognition for our programs at the school level. I'm not advocating us running to the PIAA and begging for admittance. What I'm saying is why shouldn't we change with changing times? Kids play HS hockey to represent their school and to play with their classmates and friends. The recognition from the schools has been getting better and better and so has the product. Why not help it continue down that road?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sm14,

quote:

ds play HS hockey to represent their school and to play with their classmates and friends. The recognition from

Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by crusader:
pez,

if you played against v2 teams did it upset you or were you simply happy because it was a good quality game?

quote:

Originally posted by whatthepuck:
pez, boraske,

D'town East and Perk Valley had very good JV teams this year, how would you have felt about playing them. This is an honest question. I think Steve you already answered that you would not have been thrilled about it, but I forget.

Well before I answer these questions I would first like to say that I'm a goalie not a league rep my job is to go out there and stop the puck, not to try to solve the leagues problems. I'm am perfectly fime with whatever is decided.

Fist things first crusader, for the most part I enjoyed playing against some of the V2 teams and thought that they were good competition (Especially enjoyed playing O'Hara II because I grew up with many of those kids; in fact their goalie, Zamonski, lives down the street from me). I think that some of the V2 teams (not all) did serve as good compition to compare teams with.

And the other side of the argument wtp, Yes you are right it would be a bit dissapointing if we were scheduled against a JV team of a school at the same level as us (which actually almost happened to us this year), and this is the biggest negative, in my opinion, of the current system, the potential for abuse. What will work in some cases will not work in every single case. There is a line you have to draw and honestly I am glad I don't have to do it. From my experience playing these teams I have mixed feelings about this issue, and in hindsight I probally should not have commented in the first place

Look I'm just here to play hockey, and unfortunally you can't please everyone. I just want to see what the kids playing on the V2 have to say.

It's been a while since I posted on here, but as a La Salle alum who now lives in the North Penn area I can answer some of the earlier questions- a kid would choose La Salle over LC because of the campus and facilities (not sure if you've ever seen LC, but it's slightly smaller than an average elementary school), over NP because they don't want to go to a 3,000 kid HS, and would choose La Salle over SJP and Roman because they would rather go to school in the suburbs than the city. If they are an ELITE hockey player they may choose a school based on hockey ability. I would reckon a majority of La Salle's feeder teams are kids who are looking for the prestige and education of the school and would like to be a part of the hockey program as well - students first who are getting involved in a school activity - no different than participating in the band, a play, or in student government.

Secondly, is this really a discussion of LIMITING the amount of HS hockey in the area? Shouldn't we be promoting as many teams as possible and the opportunity for every kid who wants to lace them up to do so?

quote:

Secondly, is this really a discussion of LIMITING the amount of HS hockey in the area? Shouldn't we be promoting as many teams as possible and the opportunity for every kid who wants to lace them up to do so?

Not if it means someone has five and someone else has none.

Let's do this then.

Make HS hockey match all other HS sports. Do the following:

1. Eliminate multiple varsities

2. Eliminate multiple JV teams. If the sole purpose of JV teams is to fill a Varsity team, then what is the possibility of a player on a third JV team ever seeing varsity - virtually none. So do away with the team, it's not needed.

3. Eliminate all League playoff systems - all levels. PIAA schools have no playoffs - their playoffs are district playoffs playing towards state titles, thus playoffs become flyers cup.

4. All teams pure - 9th to 12th grade only, including JV. Does any other JV sport allow kids from outside of the school play for the team - no. No 8th graders for JV or Freshmen teams.

5. Force all school programs to field Varsity teams. There are 11 programs right now that field JV teams without a varsity. (7 in intercounty, 3 in Lower Bucks, 1 in Eastern). Force them to play varsity and get killed - see how long those programs last.


In all other sports in HS, the feeder systems are set up so that the best athletes play HS sports, that is the top level. Hockey is not that way, it's set up is to feed Jr programs, AAA, Midget etc. Lots of competition, other HS sports have basically none (within the same season). Need to find a way to attract players away from club. Thus right now that's how many of the irregularities from the model came to be.

Multiple JV teams exist in hockey for one to spread out costs (lower the costs) for the teams to make it more attractive to parents, sharing practice ice between two JV teams cuts down costs. Eliminate them, just going to raise the cost.

Teams field JV teams w/o varsity to keep programs alive until enough varsity level players arrive in the program (hopefully). Other HS sports don't have that luxury. Look at the HS standings for other sports, it's the same teams (smaller schools) at the bottom in most sports. Do that in hockey (force schools to play a varsity team), parents aren't going to pay $1000+ to watch that, kids aren't going to want to do it. They'll play club hockey.

Teams fill JV teams with 8th graders and other players outside of their schools just because they don't have enough players within their own school to field a full team. Does any other HS sport allow this, I don't think so. Why should hockey then.

Many school districts have recognized their hockey teams with all of the above in existence, why haven't the other schools???

If you do the 5 items above, you will lose 25% to 50% of the players playing today. There are fewer younger players playing hockey now. DVHL had 23 mite teams this past year. 10 years ago there were 50+ mite teams, that's HALF. What will HS hockey look like 10 years from now, probably be down to a handful of schools where the school recognizes the program.

Is that the end goal???? If so, let's do it.

quote:

Secondly, is this really a discussion of LIMITING the amount of HS hockey in the area? Shouldn't we be promoting as many teams as possible and the opportunity for every kid who wants to lace them up to do so?

I don't think it would limit anything, I'm not saying LaSalle or Malvern or O'Hara should eliminate their second team, I'm saying that they should be playing JV like everyone else's second team. Again, if all of the reason's you present are the reasons to go to LaSalle (and I do believe you) than why all the resistance to being JV like everyone else, why the need for multiple varsities if the kids are going for the full LaSalle experience? The full LaSalle football experience says if you don't make the Varsity team, you play JV until you're ready for the #1 team.

Malvern's baseball team is nationally ranked, does their JV team play against varsity teams? Does their JV team call themselves varsity 2?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Sacks:

quote:

Secondly, is this really a discussion of LIMITING the amount of HS hockey in the area? Shouldn't we be promoting as many teams as possible and the opportunity for every kid who wants to lace them up to do so?

I don't think it would limit anything, I'm not saying LaSalle or Malvern or O'Hara should eliminate their second team, I'm saying that they should be playing JV like everyone else's second team. Again, if all of the reason's you present are the reasons to go to LaSalle (and I do believe you) than why all the resistance to being JV like everyone else, why the need for multiple varsities if the kids are going for the full LaSalle experience? The full LaSalle football experience says if you don't make the Varsity team, you play JV until you're ready for the #1 team.

Malvern's baseball team is nationally ranked, does their JV team play against varsity teams? Does their JV team call themselves varsity 2?

You can hope all you want that some day HS Hockey will be a "real" Varsity sport like football, baseball and basketball but its not happening...ever. So implementing all the high school ways like ralphy suggest will just drive kids out of school hockey and in the end there will be less schools with hockey and even less of a reason for it to be recognized. Of course a few schools will benefit and pick up a few trophies which some think is the true motivator here any way.

Matt,

Correct me if I'm wrong here, because I think we are both trying to say the same thing. We don't advocate cutting the number of teams that schools field, just the designation of those teams. Schools that are fielding V-2 teams, which for all intents and purposes, are open enrollment schools, gain a competitive edge against other schools by being allowed to have them. If you cut back those number of varsity teams, it will send a few players (say 20 overall from the 5 schools) to other teams. That will help everyone. Also, if as crusader says the kids that attend LaSalle go there exclusively for the academic experience and I am wrong, then those players shouldn't care if they are on a JV team playing against other JV teams. They could then schedule non-league games vs. Midget teams to get them the competition that they feel they are capable of. In fact, that is the formula for their AAA team anyway, why not expand that formula to their JV team?

The thing that crusader overlooks is that he feels that these V-2 teams provide a service by fielding good competition for everyone.

Come on now, who needs who.

There are (particularly now with the unified "league") plenty of AA & A teams, that there is not a need for additional varsity teams (i.e. V-2 teams) in order to get enough quality games scheduled.

Eliminate multiple varsities

I would be totally in favor of this if there is a JV division set-up the same way as Varsity AAA hockey. The competition would be good considering Lasalle, St Joes, Malvern, Roman, Ohara all had 2nd varsities last year, and Ryan, Judge, HGP have traditionally had strong JV teams. This would be a competetive league.

Eliminate multiple JV teams. If the sole purpose of JV teams is to fill a Varsity team, then what is the possibility of a player on a third JV team ever seeing varsity - virtually none. So do away with the team, it's not needed.

I agree with this to an extent. Most other sports do have freshmen teams, but there arent many schools (probably none) that have 15 skaters and 2 goalies in their freshmen class that cant make varsity or JV. I would propose a Varsity (9-12), JV major (9-12), JV minor (9&10) but you would not have to have 3 teams, if you dont have the resources.

The lower level high school leagues are actually bad for the player's skill though. A kid playing JV-B or middle school only, is not getting better by playing bad teams once a week, and going to one practice a week. Then if you are an athletic kid, that has potential, its not doing you any good playing against kids who are probably younger then you, and arent skilled. These 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th teams are doing players no good. Parents should save $1200 on school teams and play on a travel team (any level) and get 2 practices and 2 games a week, and try to make a school team the following year.

Eliminate all League playoff systems - all levels. PIAA schools have no playoffs - their playoffs are district playoffs playing towards state titles, thus playoffs become flyers cup.

I agree with this. There is no point to playoffs. I would rather see a tournament, showcase or Jamboree during the season, similar to what other sports do, that would count towards season records.

All teams pure - 9th to 12th grade only, including JV. Does any other JV sport allow kids from outside of the school play for the team - no. No 8th graders for JV or Freshmen teams.

I completely agree with this. Impure teams should be banned and pure teams should refuse to play them. The LBCSHL is living in 1990, and Ive heard talk that there could be a Conwell Egan-Truman combined varsity team. Number 1, with one league, this shouldnt happen, and probably wont. Number 2, who would want to play this team? Its a joke. Still this probably wont happen, and shouldnt happen at the lower levels either. I also agree with no 8th graders on league teams.

Force all school programs to field Varsity teams. There are 11 programs right now that field JV teams without a varsity. (7 in intercounty, 3 in Lower Bucks, 1 in Eastern). Force them to play varsity and get killed - see how long those programs last.

I agree with this too. If you put someone competant at the head of a program, they can turn it into something competetive, but it will be hard work. For some of the LBCSHL teams, I cant blame them in the past, you cant build a new team playing against 4 AAA teams, very bad for moral, and virtually impossible.

You have to start somewhere, and as I said, if the right person is there, success is possible. It would be alot easier for CEC to have a varsity team playing against Shanahan, Episcopal, McDevitt, then it was before. Same goes for Truman and Bensalem. There was no way they could compete with HGP, Ryan, Judge in their same league. Put them up against Tennent, Quakertowm, Abington, from Suburban 1, and they actually have a chance.

Look at Pennridge, smaller program, as far as I know, they havent had a huge population growth, yet they put a guy who knows what hes doing, and he takes the team to AA FC finals.

By not having the lower teams, its not forcing kids out of the sport. They will end up playing club at the local rink, which will proabably serve them better in the long run.

Your right about numbers being down, its cyclical. If the NHL/USAhockey is that concerned about this they should approach disney about another hockey based kids movie. One reason for the huge growth in the sport was due to the movies. As funny as it sounds, there are so many kids that started playing hockey do to the popularity of the Mighty Ducks.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: hgp fan,

To address a couple of points in posts above.

1. Multiple (JV) teams do not reduce costs. The cost structure of HS hockey is almost totally dependent on the number of teams fielded--league fees, practice slots, coaches salaries, etc., etc. Revenues vary with the number of players; 2 teams double the cost, but unless you have "full" rosters for each team, you won't double the revenue fees.

2. "Freshman team" does not mean 9-graders only. the term is applied universally to what were once "junior high teams" that now play under the high school's banner since the 7-8-9th grade Jr High and 10-11-12 HS model has fallen out of favor and been replaced by middle schools and a 9-12 HS. If you look at PIHL and CPIHL "freshman teams", they follow this and are really 7-8-9th grade teams. That may in fact be a good idea and also improve the development value of "middle school" hockey, but that's a issue for another day.

hgp fan,

I thought your post was well summarized. There are still some aspects which I think could still be tweaked but all in all I agree with most of it.

As far as growth of the sport, I think there is probably one major reason: loss of televised hockey on ESPN. Not only did ESPN pull out of televising hockey because the NHL got greedy, but ESPN now acts as if hockey barely exists. Watch one of their shows and you'll see about 5 minutes (maybe) of hockey out of a 1 hour show. Let's face it ESPN is sports. Versus is the channel you watch if you want to see Ted Nugent hunt down some wild boar.

Secondly, you will see a large increase in interest in hockey if the Flyers were to again win the Cup. Probably isn't going to happen this year, but perhaps next. Pittsburgh had like 8 rinks total prior to Mario Lemieux's arrival, and now there's something like 40 sheets in the general area now. A superstar persona that every kid wants to be like would also help that (i.e. Lemieux -> Jagr -> Crosby). The closest thing Philly had to this was probably Lindros, and he really wasn't embraced, or around long enough, to have had that sustained impact of a superstar player.

BTW hgp fan, I personally really hated those Disney Mighty Ducks movies, but maybe some kids might have liked them.

I think anyone that actually played hockey while the movies were out didnt really like them. It did attract kids who wouldnt have played prior to start to play the sport, especially in non traditional areas.

let me get this straight, if a team fields 3 or 4 teams you are ok with this just as long as they donot play varsity teams, only jv teams, even if the level of competition available for these teams is lacking and the kids involved get a poor experience? by doing this, you feel you would make hockey more like other sports in the area. however, no other sport carries multiple jv teams and no other sport carries itself as outlined by Ralphy! in the meantime, you are reducing the number of boys involved in high school hockey and diminishing the experience of those who stay involved.
clearly, this does not seem like an approach that will improve the numbers and quality of competition . just one man's observation.